Student Confessions on Anti-Racism: Martha
Welcome to Student Confessions - an interview series where graduates of Becoming Anti-Racist with Nova Reid share the challenges and triumphs of their anti-racism journey.
Martha is mixed race, a mother of two girls, heterosexual and a clinical psychologist who works with children. Her anti-racism journey didn’t become active until she met Nova and signed up for Becoming Anti-Racist with Nova Reid. And although she’s a graduate of Nova’s Course, Martha says the lifelong learning and unlearning process will never be finished: she’ll always be a student of Nova’s.
Content warning dear one: There are explicit references of coloursim and of course racism in this post - if you choose to proceed- proceed with care.
Interviewer Angela - When did you begin your anti-racism journey?
It began with Nova. It’s only been a few years, around 2020. But I think it began a little bit earlier than that because I read Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People about Race by Reni Eddo-Lodge when it came out. I found it – I don’t know how to describe it (Martha made wide movements with her hands as if she was trying to hold onto something very large) – it was like, ‘Oh, wow.’ It wasn’t transformative but it got me thinking about racism in a way I’d never thought about it before.
I remember telling everyone about Reni’s book. I’m not a big Facebooker but I put it on Facebook and said, ‘Everyone must read this book.’ It fell on deaf ears, but also I realise now that I read it and did that white-person thing of thinking, ‘I understand racism now so I’m going to teach everyone about it.’ I recognise that in myself now and I realise that wasn’t anti-racism. But I think it did begin something for me, because it got me interested and curious in a way I hadn’t been before. And so I think that was a beginning but it wasn’t active until I met Nova.Nova interviewed me for her book, The Good Ally, she found me through a contact, and I started reading her words (obviously her book wasn’t out yet) and really listening to her and it really made me want to do her Course. So I signed up for her Course and I did it over lots of months. But I don’t feel I’ve finished her Course. Her Course is my lifelong learning and unlearning process and therefore I’ll never be finished with Nova’s Course. I wrote lots of things down as I did the Course. I downloaded lots of things from the Course, but I feel it’s not the kind of Course that you finish. It doesn’t have an end because it’s an ongoing process of unlearning and learning – more unlearning for me.
Interviewer - Same. The Course reverberates and I remember things and things go deeper and, I agree with you, it doesn’t end. Even if we’ve finished as students, it doesn’t end.
But we’re not finished are we?
Interviewer - We’re not.
I’m always going to be a student of Nova’s.
And I’m grateful to her for accepting me as a student. I feel a lot of gratitude to her because she does a lot of labour, a lot of work. I don’t feel the Course is something I can tick off a list and say, ‘I’m done’.
Because of my profession, I do lots of courses, and it’s really nice to reach an ending. But I also do lots of courses which are similar to Nova’s in the sense that they’re not an end, they’re a beginning.
When you learn a new therapeutic technique you practise it, you hone it, you adapt it, and I feel Nova’s course is a bit like that. It’s a new beginning, a new start. And you might revisit it because you’ve forgotten something, or because you felt a bit stuck and you want to find out why. It’s not something that you can say, tick, done, move on.
Interviewer - What motivated you to start / continue?
I think my biggest motivator was probably personal. But it’s followed very closely by a professional motivator. I work with children and their parents, children and their families, and they come from all walks of life. They’re Black, they’re Brown, they’re mixed, they’re white. But it doesn’t matter. Although it does matter. I said, ‘It doesn’t matter’, very quickly there but I’ve caught myself. It is important.
But I was taught, on my Doctoral training, that it doesn’t matter. You’re respectful, but you’re colour-blind.
Interviewer - I don’t see Colour?
Yes. There’s something about, ‘Let’s be inclusive, Let’s think about diversity’, but also there was a lot of othering. The language was very othering. And it wasn’t about, ‘You need to reflect on you if you’re the white person in the room. It’s your job not their job to assimilate and make sense of the way we do therapy.’
I’m a clinical psychologist but the way we do therapy is very white western. It was created by white men. So recognising that – which I always have – but really sitting with it and thinking about when I see a family, how do I have these conversations in an open way and really acknowledge racism, rather than being, ‘This is inclusive. I’m trained. I’m a nice person. All those things.’ It actually really matters. I’ve worked with little boys – sadly it’s often boys – who have experienced racism in school and I think that was a motivator for me to do Nova’s Course because some of the things that happened during that work I knew then, but now it’s a hundred times bigger.
I knew then that some of the things that happened at work didn’t sit comfortably with me. And some of it was my fault.
‘Do no harm’. But also when you don’t know, you sometimes do harm.
And also it came from higher up. My supervisors and my managers said, ‘Don’t use the word racism with a teacher’. But there’s something about authority and power when you’re a junior member of staff, you follow what they’re doing, but it never sat well with me. Now I’m older I do things differently, but a lot of the change in me is because of Nova and the Course. They’ve helped with some of the undoing of me. Now I would not have gone to my supervisor to ask about talking about racism. I would have just stated the facts and I would have worked with the family as best I could. The first step would have been to call it out, because in some ways it’s therapeutic for a child and their family to hear it.
It’s not just bullying. This is racism.
I don’t need to ask my manager what she thinks about it – another white woman – I can just say, ‘Let’s talk about this’. And I can say, ‘I’ve said this is racism, but I’m a white person. So how do you feel about that? Can we talk about that?’ I would have started from there and it would have been a different piece of work.
Because racism is trauma I would have worked within a trauma model, rather than what I did which was not talk about racism. I did my best at the time, but I still think of it, particularly one little boy, because it’s important to me. It’s part of my anti-racism learning.
And the personal reasons. I said I’m mixed race – Nova does know this – but -
I only found out I was mixed race when I was 37.
I’ve always felt it, but I didn’t know. So I had a personal calling to the Course. I’m not Black. I’m Chilean, Chinese and Spanish so I’m very mixed race. But I am Brown. I always felt Brown. I look Brown. But I was told, my entire life when I was growing up, that I was white, I wasn’t Brown. I just tanned easily. I was white. It’s a very personal thing for me. My mum was white, so I am white but I’m from lots of places. But fundamentally I don’t feel like I fit in a white European homogenous place. That isn’t who I am.
It was around this time that I met Nova and started doing some reading and so there was something, for me, about suddenly making sense of the microaggressions I received. Things people have said to me over and over again that never sat comfortably with me, but I didn’t have the language, I didn’t have the understanding to ask, ‘What is this? And why does it make me feel so uncomfortable?’
Things like, ‘Where are you from? No, come on you’re not Spanish. Where are you really from?’ That still happens. It happens to me all the time. It happens in the NHS. So many families look at my last name and say, ‘Is that Portuguese? Or Spanish?’ And when I say it’s Spanish, they’ll say, ‘But you’re not Spanish. Where are you from?’
So that’s the personal motivator.
But underlying that there’s a professional motivator, because it’s important to me that I don’t do any more harm. And it’s important to me that I’m aware of how I position myself, the words I use, the words I don’t use and why I don’t.
It’s really important to me, so that I am a safe person to talk to. I don’t think it’s good enough to say, ‘I’ve trained as a clinical psychologist and therefore that makes me safe.’ Because that’s not true.
There are families and there are circumstances where – and I have done this – I will say, ‘I don’t know that I am the right person for you. I can find a Black therapist if that would feel more comfortable.’ And, ‘I’m happy to recommend somebody to you and you can have a think about whether that feels more comfortable than talking to me. Ultimately it’s your choice.’ But I’m much more open to talking about this, to think about the pros and cons of me versus somebody else. And not everybody wants a Black therapist but some people do and I understand why. And I don’t take it personally. Whereas I think pre-Nova, pre-some of the work that I’m doing on myself, I would have found that offensive. Or I would have thought, ‘Were they any better than me? I’m super-experienced. I have so much knowledge.’
The Course and Nova have really changed how I work, professionally. The Course has helped me reflect on some of the things that I’ve done and it’s helped me, hopefully, stay accountable to how I am now. And also to be aware that I might get it really wrong but it’s okay to say it and talk about it.
Interviewer - To acknowledge it.
Yes.
Interviewer - What was the most difficult aspect of the Course and why?
My own emotional responses to the Course. My own white fragility. My own white saviourism.
Interviewer - Wanting to fix it all?
Yes. Wanting to fix it all and make everything better. I’m very aware of that. It’s one of the things I need to rein in because I’m aware that I do it.
Going through the Course one of the things I tried to do was to witness myself on the Course, experiencing it. I had a notebook and I’d write down not what I’d learnt cognitively, but what I felt in my body through the modules of the course. And that would help me reflect on what was happening and I’d ask myself, ‘Where did that come from?’ and, ‘What do I need to think about for me?’ and ‘What do I need to repair?’ ‘What do I need to learn about or to move through, whether it’s shame, or the desire to save everybody.’ Questioning the saviour in me was really hard.
I have therapy and my therapist is Black and I had a conversation with her about whether it was okay to talk about this. Not to have her teaching me, but to talk through my feelings about racism, in therapy. What we decided to do was that I could bring it up if it felt important enough, but she wasn’t there to work through anti-racism with me, because that’s my work. My therapy’s about my identity, but not about my anti-racism work.
There were things that came up – my white fragility and my saviourism – but there were also some pain points for me, like recognising microaggressions, whether I’d done them or I’d received them. Having a mixed-race experience, but coming from layers and layers and layers of whiteness that I’ve absorbed was – is – really hard. It’s one of the hardest things for me.
because there’s two sides to me, there’s the white bit but I’ve also got the Brown bit and sometimes they come into conflict and I’m trying to find a way of connecting them because they’re both me.
I try to use my myself to work through things. The white supremacy bit is there – I was brought up with it, I’ve absorbed it, it’s instinctive. But then I’ve also learnt from me to make sense of the other parts of my identity: that I shouldn’t feel bad about my white supremacy. Because I’m not to blame for living in this society, and the upbringing I had. None of us are to blame for it. But I am responsible for it because what was passed down to me I can make a choice to change. I can make a choice to learn and move through. So, rather than blame and feel bad or ashamed or fragile about it, I have this other side of me.
– and I always hear Nova’s voice – I can be empowered to do better and remind myself that although I’m not to blame, I am responsible.
Interviewer - Yes. So is what you’re saying that you cannot help – as none of us can – how you were born into this world, the past, but you can be responsible for what you do in the future, and your way of navigating the world?
Yes. I’m responsible for the interactions I have with other humans. And I’m responsible for how I think about not just other humans but also myself. I’m responsible for that. The narratives we grew up with are there, it’s not our fault. But, historically, I come from ancestors who were conquistadors. And we don’t really talk about slavery in Spain. But that’s ridiculous. Of course we took enslaved Africans to the Caribbean. And we enslaved South America’s indigenous tribes.
And we’re becoming aware that my grandmother came from an indigenous tribe in Chile.
So I’ve got the oppressor and the oppressed in me. And I struggle to reconcile that sometimes.
And that’s what I talk about in therapy. And I also struggle with my family who brought me up, I struggle with feeling that they oppressed me as well. They wouldn’t allow me to find out who I really was, my true identity. It was clouded in shame: in order to be okay you need to be white. You can’t be Brown.
Colourism is something I’ve experienced in my family. I still do. My mum will still be disgusted when I get a tan.
And I tan very quickly. My skin will absorb the sun’s rays easily, I’ve got lots of melanin. But it’s not okay to stand out as Brown within my family, it’s perceived as being disrespectful to them. So I need to reconcile that, alongside the fact that I come from indigenous tribes that were oppressed by my ancestors too. So that bit is hard.
But I feel like having both can also be an asset. I try and give my white supremacy bit more compassion, because I think it needs it. The other bit of me doesn’t get agitated in the same way, but the white bit I sometimes have to soothe and say, ‘You can make a choice. This is what you know. This is how people behaved around you. This is what they told you. This is the society, this is the norm. But you don’t have to be that way. You don’t have to behave that way. You can take a different stance. It doesn’t make you a better human for taking a different stance, it just makes you human.’
The white bit of me is a little bit competitive. I want to be better.
Interviewer - I think that is very white.
But it’s not about being better. It’s about being human. And connecting the humanity of all the different sides of me.
Interviewer - Integration is the word that’s on my mind.
Yes. Integration.
Interviewer - Did you ever think of giving up on the Course? If so, why and what kept you going?
I didn’t ever think of giving up because I feel the Course and becoming anti-racist is a lifelong endeavour. So it’s not really giving up but I did pause. And I was aware that it was procrastination, because it was hard.
Interviewer - Yes. It is hard. Can you remember any specific points where you paused?
There’s a chapter where there’s an exercise around your friendships. And I found it illuminating, but then I had to pause for a while. I went to an international school, I was brought up in an international school and, this is important in terms of me getting to where I am and some of the things I’ve already said, but my international school was the kind of place where you build relationships with people of different cultures, religions, multiple languages. I speak three languages fluently, but in my school three languages was probably the minimum.
It's a very privileged place. It’s where children from families who work for the UN go. They travel round the world. It’s multilingual, multicultural, most kids have parents from two different backgrounds, that was very common. But it was a very colour-blind space. We were taught, ‘If you come to this school you can’t possibly be racist.’ It was an unwritten rule. The words of my school are, ‘You are children of the world.’ And therefore when we go out into the world we’re going to do amazing things because we’ve been brought up slightly differently. And we are accepting of everyone.
But there was no conversation, in my entire schooling, on racism, and I went there for my whole school life. None. No conversation ever.
Interviewer - It’s extraordinary. But then again perhaps it’s not extraordinary, in our racist world.
In some ways it’s not extraordinary. But I’m thinking, ‘Who created this school where racism is not something we talk about?’
And so for me, giving up on the Course just doesn’t make sense. Because I felt I’d been brought up in a way that’s given me the wrong messages the whole time. Unhealthy. Unhelpful. If you don’t teach racism to children – I’m a clinical psychologist, I know this intellectually and now I know this in a different way (Martha put her hand on her heart) – if we don’t teach children about racism then they can’t spot it. Which means that they can’t do something about it. If you haven’t got the words or the education around it there’s nothing we can do. We end up perpetuating it in this blind way, saying things like, ‘I’m a nice person so I haven’t done anything bad.’ But we’re wearing eye-masks. Walking around with our eyes closed. The colour-blind story is so unhelpful. So I don’t feel that giving up was ever something I was going to do, but pausing was something I needed to do, sometimes.
I’m one of those people who’s not good at not finishing things anyway, so that’s in my personality, but I wanted to learn. So if I paused, and I’d use my therapy for this, I’d say, I’m stuck. And sometimes I needed to cry. And sometimes I was so scared of my white fragility that I denied it. Then I’d say, ‘This isn’t fragility if it’s part of my learning. I need to allow it. So that I’m not fragile in front of somebody else. I need to allow my tears and give myself that compassion.’ Allow the compassion to come in, allow the process to happen and then keep going. Move through, rather than trying to reach an end.
The Course was so necessary for me personally, but also for my work. I felt it would be insulting to the families, the children, the work that I do, if I gave up. To say that I do safe therapy but I won’t finish this Course would be hypocritical.
Interviewer - How do you navigate shame without turning it into self-loathing?
Hard.
With compassion.
I try and sit with shame and it’s really uncomfortable when it comes up. But I try and sit with it and I tell myself what I would say to somebody I love very much. And when I can’t say those things I write them down. I use practices that I might use in my therapy with families and children, where I’ll write a letter. I’ll say, ‘I feel really bad about whatever ... I feel really shit.’ Whatever comes out. And then I will respond. So, if somebody I love said this to me, what would I say? And often one of the things I’ll say is, ‘You’re not to blame. This is how our society is. This is how you were brought up. These are the words that your family used and that you heard and you absorbed. And it makes sense that you’re really upset. It makes sense that this hurts. It’s painful to you. You’re learning something different.
‘But you can learn. You can do something different. You can focus on your future self rather than sitting with, “I did this in the past.” Or, “I did this now.” You can sit in a different place that gives you perspective about what you want to do, moving forward.’
And that can be motivating rather than shameful. So that’s what I usually do.
Interviewer - I think it’s Brené Brown who says words to the effect of, ‘Shame shrivels in the face of empathy.’ I feel that’s what you’re saying that you do with your letters and your compassion for your shame.
We need lots of self-compassion to do anti-racism work. And I do feel that the more empathetic you are towards yourself, the more that spreads to others around you. I can be more empathetic to people who aren’t on the same anti-racism journey as me, or not engaged in anti-racism at all, if I’m empathetic to myself. And some of those people who aren’t engaged surround me. Some of those people are in my family.
Interviewer - Me too.
I can find more empathy for them in those moments rather than be attacking or confrontational or ...
Interviewer - Judgemental?
Yes. Judgemental. Telling them, ‘I know better than you.’
Interviewer - Superior?
(We both laughed.)
Yes. Superior. Like, ‘You don’t know.’ But, instead of doing that, I can tap into empathy for how hard this is. With empathy and curiosity it’s easier to try and get other people to engage, to open their minds to a possibility. Whether it’s reading something or watching something to get them interested. But if we act with superiority, if we’re judgemental, confrontational, it just becomes an extra barrier. And people disengage.
Interviewer - They shut down.
Yes.
Interviewer - How does it feel to know this work isn’t about you? That you’re not at the centre of this work? Which actually for you, it’s a combination question, isn’t it? Because it is about some parts of you.
Yes. But it also isn’t about me. I’m not Black. Although the core of the work that I do is on myself.
Interviewer - How does it feel?
It can feel tricky. I’m inherently selfish.
(We both laughed.)
I am. And I’ve become aware of that. And that means that it can feel quite hard. The saviourism. But I think I have moved past that. I think it was an important part of the process that I could acknowledge. But where I’m learning and moving through is about being more of a human in society.
And what I feel is really transformative is the impact I can have on my children. I’ve got two young children. One is a tiny baby. But for my five-year-old, it’s really important that she learns about racism. It’s really important that we talk about it. She knows the word. We have books. She’s got friends who are Black. We talk about Black hair. She’s really curious – as kids are – so we talk about all these things. It’s really important to me that it’s not about me, but I can pass something on to my kids.
And part of being a human in the world is about our shared humanity. So it’s not about me, but in order for all of us to create a different kind of world we all have to use our power in the best ways we can. So I use mine on children, my own children and the children I work with.
I don’t know if I’ve answered the question.
Interviewer - I think you have. It feels to me that what you’re saying is you absolutely know it’s not about you, but it’s like being in service, to a greater cause. Serving a greater cause.
Yes. Yes. And that cause is really important to me and it should be important to all of us. It should matter to all of us. There is more that connects us and to me that is really important.
Interviewer - What were your aha moments on the Course?
Something about allyship not being something that you are.
I can’t say I’m an ally. That needs to come from Black people who may say, ‘Martha is safe.’ It’s not me who gets to say that. I can’t do xyz and get some gold stars and say, ‘I’m an ally! I can put it on my cv now.’ That’s for Black people. They get to know whether you are somebody who’s safe. Whether it feels safe to be in your presence or to have certain conversations. It’s their experience of you not you who gets to say, ‘Hey. I’m an ally.’ That was really powerful for me.
Because of who I am and what I do – I won’t say, ‘I’m an ally,’ Or, ‘I’ve done an anti-racism course so I’m safe, please come to me.’ But I probably would have done that before the Course. But it is a thing. On our Doctorate training you do inclusion and diversity, tick. It was a thing in the NHS, a little DEI top up every year. But none of it is anti-racist. I’m so aware of it now, but I wasn’t aware of it before.
You can’t know what you don’t know. It’s only when you learn anti-racism that you really get it. But that was an aha moment. I don’t do it for me, I do it for a greater cause. I like your words.
Interviewer - Not my words. Nova’s words.
Of course they are. I feel like there were so many more aha moments.
Interviewer - Do you want to say anything else about aha moments now?
It was small, but for me fundamental, about not getting frozen in spaces where I worry that I’ll say the wrong word or I’ll get it wrong in some way, so instead I’ll do nothing.
There was a big aha moment about, Do it, with as good intentions as I can, or as skilfully as I can, and if I get it wrong just acknowledge it. Just sit with it and say, ‘I’m really sorry. I really got that wrong.’ And say, ‘Thank you’ – which is where I usually begin – ‘Thank you for telling me I got that wrong.’ And listening. ‘Tell me what I did. I am so sorry. What I can do better. I’ve hurt and upset you, what can I do?’
It’s about repair. Actual meaningful repair.
It seems simple but it’s a hard thing to do. I talk about repair a lot in my therapy and in my work. But Nova and her Course taught me a lot about repair and what meaningful repair with accountability is. It isn’t just saying I’m sorry. It’s about making yourself accountable to someone, and asking, ‘What can I do?’ And if, for that person, it’s, ‘I don’t think I can spend time with you any more, because what you’ve done is so hurtful,’ to accept that. And to hold those boundaries. It might be painful for you, but it’s not you who got hurt in the first place.
So, Martha, stop trying to save everybody. Just let that go and listen. Just be with. Even if it means what you say is, ‘If you change your mind I’m here. And I do want to have this conversation with you, but I get it. I’ve said something wrong or done something wrong.’ That was an aha moment for me.
Interviewer - How has doing the Course helped you and the people around you? At work or in your personal life, or both?
I feel I’m a different psychologist now, but I don’t feel like I’m finished. I’m still learning and unlearning.
And personally, yes, meaningful repair and acknowledging parts of me that I don’t think I was that aware of, or maybe didn’t sit with them as openly as I do now. The saviour part, the selfish part, the slightly superior part.
The Course has changed me, but in subtle ways that I don’t know if everyone sees. People who know me see it. My husband – we talk about racism and anti-racism a lot – he sees it but I think it’s more internal so it looks invisible, sometimes. Which is powerful because it’s not about me; I don’t suddenly appear different. But there’s something happening inside me that is different. Including around words I didn’t know, like white fragility, but I feel it: I have a lot of white fragility and I’m very aware of it. I’m very quick to cry. But now I know what it is, I can do something with it that’s really powerful, as opposed to, ‘I’m such a victim’.
The Course has changed me, and it’s changed my work.
Also we go on many holidays with friends who have children. My best friend is mixed race and another friend – they’re both godfathers to our children – also a best friend, is Black. His little boy is mixed race – his mother is white – so we go on lots of holidays with them but my husband has said what he notices now is that I will check in with my Black friend about where we’re going – not just the country – and so now I’m a lot more conscious about asking if it feels safe, is the hotel not only comfortable but is it safe for him. And my husband says I never used to do that.
So I’ve become a lot more aware when I travel about where I go and where my money goes, but also, is everyone safe? So that’s now become part of how I think about holidays. One of the places I love is Barbados: we got married there. But before we got married we went to a Plantation there and I just sobbed. I found it really hard to watch a very old black-and-white video of the Plantation and the owners as they talked about it with such pride and how it was great fun to mix the sugar cane and I thought, ‘Is it? Really?’ They were talking about enslaved people. They were calling their Plantation idyllic.
Interviewer - These were videos of enslaved people working, with a commentary by the then owners?
Yes. They were saying how lucky they were to live there. This, for me, was pre-Nova but still I just sat there saying, ‘What?’ I like to learn about the history of the places we go to and it was my idea to go to the Plantation, but I was really upset by it all. I wonder now what I would do differently if I’d done Nova’s course then – I think the Plantation is now owned by Barbadians. But we’ve gone back to Barbados – and now I’m a lot more aware and conscious of where and how I spend my money.
Interviewer - How has the Course informed the work you do (if relevant)?
Definitely being more aware of my whiteness in the therapy room when it’s a family who’s Brown or Black – often being very explicit with those families about my own mixed race. Also often families know about my mixed race and they choose to come to me for that reason – because I work privately they can make that choice.
Also I used to be part of the Paediatric Psychology Network – a national network of Paediatric Psychologists – for nearly ten years, but a year ago I left. I brought the subject of anti-racism up and said, ‘We don’t talk about racism and we haven’t been trained properly in anti-racism.’ Because we also work with lots of Black nurses and doctors and some of the things that have happened at work have been racist injuries: harmful remarks and actions towards Black doctors or Black nurses, members of my team. So, for example, a white female medical consultant touching a Black female medical consultant’s hair, in a meeting, and saying, ‘Oh, it’s so bouncy.’
The response as a team – we were all sat in a circle and everybody could see it – the response was poor. But as a psychologist within a medical team it’s part of my role to draw attention to these things – often in ways that are palatable because otherwise it’s not helpful for the room. But to bring something up and to have a conversation. But some of those things happened when I was quite young and I hadn’t done Nova’s Course so I did nothing then. But I did go and see that consultant and asked if she was okay and she said, ‘Yes. Why?’ And I said, ‘Because of what happened at the meeting this morning. It didn’t feel comfortable.’ And she said, ‘Thank you.’ But – at the time – I knew it was wrong but I didn’t exactly know why. It was connected with being colourblind and it felt wrong in my body. But I didn’t call it racism then.
Interviewer - And now?
Now there’s no doubt. Now I’d feel a lot more confident and empowered to check in with her and also to bring up that racist action within the team – probably at a different moment, I wouldn’t have done it then, it would have been unhelpful and possibly also dangerous to do it then. But as the Lead Psychologist in my service I would have definitely said – as part of our community we’re always learning – we need to talk about it and we have to do it properly and all of us have to understand and learn about racism and anti-racism. So now I’m much more pro-active. Now there’s an anti-racism part, section, to our learning.
But, in NHS Trusts at the moment, they still just do Difference and Diversity which is not fit for purpose. It doesn’t really include racism. It mentions it for two minutes. It’s on a video – video-training – and it’s not that great. It doesn’t touch on the issues that need to be touched on because we work with Black families and it’s really important that we’re not doing any harm. And we work with Black colleagues so we need to be a safe team for them so when they’re at work they’re not worrying about not just the racism from people who come into the hospital, but their own team members. It’s not okay to make work an unsafe space for Black people who come in to do their job. That’s really important to me. So this is training outside the standard NHS – this is within teams. But the issue is it’s still pocketed. The rest of the hospital might not have it.
Interviewer - Do you feel there are things you can do yourself to promote anti-racism in other groups – it exists in your group – but do you feel you can promote it in a wider context?
That’s a really good question. The Paediatric Psychology Network exists within a wider network called the British Psychological Society (BPS) and around the time of Black Lives Matter we – the Paediatric Psychology Network – put out a manifesto saying, ‘These are the anti-racist things we’re actively going to work on and take action on within our teams’. We said we were going to be active about anti-racism. And we fed this back to the BPS who issued a statement that said – I’m summarising – ‘We as psychologists are not racist.’
That really angered me. I had a big problem with that. They are a powerhouse of white men in their fifties and above and their statement that said – again I’m summarising – ‘As psychologists we are already aware of all these issues and we work with them in therapy really well, so we don’t need to deal with these issues.’
So I left because I couldn’t align with them. I’m no longer a member of the BPS which is why I’m no longer a member of the Paediatric Psychology Network (because they’re embedded). They charter me but I’m not a member any more. I think if we all walked out that would be more powerful. But people need to make their own choices.
It’s really hard. I often think, ‘What else can I do? What else can I do?’ But I think I do what I can within my circle of influence and I try to call in people, particularly if they’re psychologists.
I often call them in by offering Nova’s TED talk because it’s an excellent TED talk. That’s how I called in my husband. He watched it and cried. But he cried because no one had ever explained racism to him like that. And if people watch Nova’s talk I suggest her book and her Course. I trickle these things in and hope people will take action. But I’ve learnt I can’t make them take action. And if I try to make them their reactions might be performative in the sense of saying they’d read a book when they hadn’t.
I kept telling my friends to read Reni Eddo-Lodge’s Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race – but I don’t think they did. It was on their shelves but it wasn’t read ... that’s performative.
So I think I’ve learnt the really tough lesson that you can’t make people become anti-racist. You can invite them in, call them in, try and engage them in something and then you have to allow people to make that choice.
Interviewer - How has the Course changed / informed the way you parent (if relevant)?
I would have probably talked about racism with my daughter even before I’d done Nova’s Course, because I’m a Clinical Psychologist and it’s something that really matters to me and I have so many books on anti-racism. But we also have joy books on Blackness: she loves the Stevie Wonder story. And we’ve got books on Bob Marley and she loves them too. But I talked to her about racism very early on and I think the cause for those conversations was her best friend who’s mixed race – as I said before – because he’s got bright blonde hair but black skin and she noticed that. And I wanted her not to be colourblind the way I was brought up.
And definitely teaching my children – one is still very young – but teaching them about racism. For the older one it’s already come up a couple of times at school. She’s only five. But we talk about why it’s always the little Black boys that things happen to at school. And also being really aware of the books, images, toys, things they have around them. And it’s really important for my children to see Black and Brown people – because I’m Brown. It matters to me, personally, as well.
My daughter’s favourite dolly is Black and she chose it herself when she was really little. But my Mum’s now given me all my old Barbies which my daughter now has and we talked about it – a conversation I think I’ll share on Instagram – even if I get a lot of pushback. But it’s a blessing in disguise when people unfollow me when I talk about racism because I’m not looking for people like that in my community. Or they’ll say something that makes me block them, but because I’m not an anti-racism educator I won’t engage. But if they’re curious and engaged I will, and some of them I’ve got to follow Nova. But what some people say is harmful. So I won’t leave their comments there because some Black people follow me too, so I’ll delete harmful comments.
So, back to the Barbies, they’re all blonde and blue-eyed. But when my daughter and I had a conversation about them I said, ‘Let’s look at your dollies.’ She’s got a mixture of different coloured dollies. And I said, ‘Let’s look at Mummy’s dollies. What do you see?’ She said, ‘They’re all barbies.’ And I said, ‘And?’ And she said, ‘They’ve all got blue eyes. They’re all blonde. They’re all white.’ Then she said, ‘Mummy, that’s really weird.’ And I asked why and she said, ‘Because not everybody’s blonde and blue-eyed. No one in our house is blonde and blue-eyed.’ (My husband’s blonde and green-eyed). She said, ‘That’s not like us. That’s not like people at school.’
And we also talked about the fact that Mummy hadn’t got a single dolly that looked like her. And my daughter asked how that felt, because she likes to pick dollies that have brown eyes like her. And I said, ‘It was really hard. I didn’t really like playing with dollies because none of them looked like me.’ There was no sense of ‘this is me’.
And from Nova’s Course I learnt that the same way that Black families have to talk to their children about racism because they have no choice
I have to talk about racism to my children because there is no choice. Because I can’t bring up children who just perpetuate it.
And that’s really stayed with me. But when I put these things out on Instagram some people say it’s too serious a conversation to have with a child, that it might traumatise them. But I say it’s too important a conversation not to have.
Nobody educated me about it. But if I make these conversations normal – an acceptance that racism exists – my children will be equipped to talk about it.
Until racism stops it’s the conversation we have to have with kids and my husband is very much engaged in doing it with me. Our daughter said something the other day about nice white skin and I heard him ask her what she’d just said. It’s not always me having the conversations, we both do it. It’s really important that we both do.
Interviewer - How has the Course changed the relationships you have with Black people and People of Colour in your life?
I’ve already touched on this a bit – but I think more openness in conversation, with permission from other people. So not conversations to learn about them, but conversations about, if we’re going out, if that bar or this restaurant feel safe for them.
But also I apologised to both my mixed race and my Black male friends, separately, for times when I might have done or said something that upset them and they hadn’t brought it up with me. I said I wanted them to be honest with me when I got it wrong. My Black friend said, ‘I’m a middle class man and I don’t feel I experience that much racism because of my status, but I appreciate what you’ve said.’
Then we had a conversation about it – he mentors young Black people – and we had conversations about our children, we agreed it was important to have these conversations. But when I told my husband he wasn’t sure I should talk to them because it might offend my friends. But I said if I offend them I’ll apologise and I’ll do what they need to repair our relationships. I don’t want to get it wrong and not know I’ve got it wrong. Now I’m learning about anti-racism, I don’t want to be the person who thinks she’s done a Course and that’s all there is to it. Because it isn’t. I want to deepen our relationships, to build our relationships, and make sure I’m a safe person for them. I realise I’ve been really unaware before in some of my words and actions.
My mixed race friend said I’d never done anything wrong but I said, ‘But I might have.’ And I felt communication opened up with both of them. And now I hope they both feel there’s some safety there for them, with me, and for my Black friend’s little boy’s friendship with my daughter.
Interviewer - How do you remain self-aware? eg, How do you avoid moving into saviourism? (How do you recognise when you are moving into saviourism?) And maybe also to touch on – if you feel this applies to you because you’re mixed race – how do you manage internalised racism?
Saviourism is one of the things I work on a lot. I’m a Clinical Psychologist – I want to save people! That’s my job, to look after people. So I’m very aware of it. How I stay aware is that there’s a feeling in my body: saviourism makes me stand tall. It gives me a sense of power. I feel things strongly and I’m empathic, so saviourism makes me feel I’m doing something important. But when I check in with myself, when I get that feeling inside, I stop and ask myself what I’m doing. I ask, ‘What is this?’ And I take a step back.
Also in my therapy we talk about saviourism a lot. Some of it’s really unhealthy. So I do try and pull back. But a lot has been taken from me – because of my mixed race heritage – and I’ve given a lot of myself to meet other people’s needs: so I think saviourism has become an instinct – but it’s not healthy.
When it comes to internalised racism it’s really hard. Because it’s both internalised as a white person but there’s Colourism as well, in my family. My Mum’s words towards my daughters are, ‘You beautiful white blonde children.’ And, ‘Look how fair-skinned she is, she’s so beautiful.’ It happens constantly. I don’t think she’s aware of it. But she does it. It used to reduce me to tears. Now, I’ve moved on. It’s still painful, but I’ve moved to a place where I realise it’s about her, it’s not about me or my daughters. So now I’ll often look at my husband and roll my eyes and think, ‘Here we go again.’
I am trying to be proud of my skin. That’s hard to say. I’m also trying not to hide or be something I’m not.
I’ve tried for a long time to fit in, to fit in with being white European, which I’m not.
One of the things I do for me is make sure that I don’t try to pass as white.
I used to dye my hair blonder and wear lighter make-up and when I was young my mother sometimes used to make me sit indoors in the summer, or on summer holidays, because I’d get too dark and that wasn’t okay. My husband says now, ‘This is madness.’ And the thing is you can put Factor 50 on me and I’ll still tan.
People sometimes say, ‘You’ve got a lovely tan.’ But now I’m much more comfortable with saying, ‘That’s not a tan. That’s just my skin.’
But it’s still hard, sometimes. It’s a process. I started very late, and I’m not there yet and it will take me time, but my therapy is also about accepting all sides of me. But Colourism is such a big thing in my life. My best friend is blonde and blue-eyed and she builds me up and she’s wonderful and she’s not racist – we’ve known each other since we were four – but my Mum has said, in the past, ‘You know she’s always going to be the prettier one, because she’s blonde.’
But now I know that that’s about my Mum and not about me.
Interviewer - That was courageous, thank you.
Interviewer -What’s been the hardest lesson to learn / accept?
Several things, but from my mixed race side, acknowledging and understanding all the microaggressions I’ve received in my life. I never knew that the things that stung me were racism. I cried a lot when I realised. But when I didn’t know, when I wasn’t aware, they made me feel really stupid.
I’ve always knew my parents were racist, but the racism towards me has been really hard to separate myself from and acknowledge, realise, as I’ve said before, that it’s about them and not about me.
And part of that has been about setting really clear boundaries. That’s been helpful. That’s been positive. I’ve set some really strict boundaries around my relationship with my parents and their relationship with my daughters. We only see them a few times a year and I can’t see them for more than three or four days. Because I recognise now that it’s harming me. But when I was little it was really hard.
And on the other side, accepting the saviourism and the white internalised racism from my whiteness has also been hard.
Accepting the idea that it isn’t true that white people are better. But the way I’ve acted and behaved in the past has allowed white power to be a desirable thing, and I’ve allowed myself to think that being Black, or Brown, is less good. It’s been hard to make the transition especially because, as Nova says, I know I’m a good person and I do a good job at work where I’m trying to help people.
I used to say, ‘I don’t see Colour,’ because I was brought up in an International school so I knew I was a great human in the world. But then I realised that not seeing Colour doesn’t help. And the positive from that is unlearning my internalised racism, working through it, and thinking and feeling differently.
At the core of it all, I’m a human and I want to connect with other humans. That’s where I need to focus.
Interviewer - What’s been the most important lesson you’ve learned that you carry forward?
I’ve said this before, but the one that really sticks in my mind is that I don’t get to decide if I’m an ally or not.
That’s a really important lesson for me because it taps into my saviourism and my recognition that saviourism makes me want to be the best ally. But I recognise that now. And it’s not okay. Being the best ally is not what being an ally is about.
I was thinking about this conversation with you today and why I was doing it. And when I checked in with myself I asked myself if having this conversation was part of my saviourism. I asked myself if I wanted to be thought of as a better clinical psychologist than the rest of them, because I’m having this conversation. But then I knew that wasn’t why I agreed to this conversation. I agreed because I hoped this conversation would invite other people into Nova’s Course.
But if there’s any hint of me wanting to be a better clinical psychologist than anybody else I want Nova to anonymise this conversation because that isn’t what I want to be (even if the saviourist part of myself thinks it is!). But it isn’t. I’m really hoping this conversation will show people the value of Nova’s Course and get them to sign up for change.
Interviewer - Obviously Nova will decide about whether or not to anonymise this conversation, but it feels to me that your awareness of your saviourist side and the part of you that wants to be the best ally but knows that’s not the point – is the point.
Yes. I am aware of it. But I still have to tread carefully because I do mess up sometimes. I’m a high-achiever. So another hard lesson is that you can be a good human and still really mess up and hurt people. But the good human part is about repairing meaningfully and about the apology. It’s about making mistakes and being accountable for those mistakes. Not trying to avoid mistakes to seem perfect in the world.
Even though I asked you to send the questions for this conversation in advance I didn’t read them. I didn’t prepare for this. I didn’t want to try to do this perfectly. And I know that I haven’t always used the right language – but that’s part of my unlearning, part of the process. My anti-racism journey is unique to me and part of that is about not being perfect. Because if I’m trying to be perfect then I’m being saviourist and I’m trying not to be.
Interviewer - How have you, and how are you still, calling people to anti-racism work?
I’m curious about things and I’ve been inviting clinical psychologists and friends into the work. I do it by asking questions like, ‘Where did you learn about that?’ Or, ‘Tell me why you think that?’ But there are members of my extended family who are racist and I’ve realised that ‘good people’ who are racist are the worst. Because the extremes, the KKK, at least are explicit about it. You know where you stand with them.
Some of the members of my extended family are lovely people, but they’ll say the most racist comment with a smile. They’re not even aware. Around Brexit they were saying things like, ‘There are all these immigrants taking our jobs and maybe we shouldn’t allow them to. There are plenty of white British people who can’t get a job because the immigrants are taking them.’ I’m summarising, but that’s the sense of what they said. And I was sat there thinking, ‘But I’m an immigrant. I’m a clinical psychologist in the NHS. Am I taking a British person’s job? I’m not British.’
What I try to do is be curious and ask them where they learned that immigrants are taking all the white British people’s jobs. I ask if it’s a fact or an opinion. And my husband does it with me. We try to help them distinguish between reading an opinion and absorbing it and actually having a critical mind.
And with my friends I’ll try to open up conversations by asking, ‘What other ideas are there?’ And I’ll do what I can to open them up to anti-racist knowledge. I’ll say, ‘There’s something you might like to watch.’ And I suggest Nova’s TED talk. Often I do that before I recommend her book or her Course because it’s – to me – such a powerful way to begin to trickle things in.
And I hope that by building awareness, the people I know will start to take action.
With my daughters, because of the conversations we constantly have, I know they’ll be able to carry anti-racism work forward. And often with my daughters, and sometimes with my friends, I use myself and my mixed race experiences of Colourism and racism, to show what racism and Colourism are and how they feel. I’ll use the experience if being asked where I’m from and then being told that that’s not where I’m from to show how racism works.
I say, ‘Curiosity is asking where I’m from. Racism is not accepting it when I say where I’m from.’ I got that from Nova and it’s brilliant.
Interviewer - Is there anything else you’d like to say about the Course or about your anti-racism journey that we haven’t talked about?
Just that, thanks to Nova and the Course, my anti-racism journey is never going to end. And that’s a really good thing. I feel sad that we have to do this but it’s necessary that we do – by we I mean all of us – because otherwise we’re not going to stop people experiencing racism and being harmed by it.
But Nova asked a question on her Instagram recently about ‘What’s changed?’ and I do have some sadness around that. Because I’m not sure if – and I have to check myself on this too – people read the books and do Nova’s Course and then feel complacent. But that’s not good enough. It’s hard to witness, to see change because I think change will probably take decades. It’s hard to feel you’re part of a racist system and you’re just making little cracks in the system rather than actually breaking it down.
So I like to think it’ll be the next generation where we’ll see real change as long as the people who are taking action now – me included – are actually taking good action.
That’s my hope. That in the next generation we’ll see the change.
Interviewer - If the change is modelled for the next generation, there’s hope in that. And wasn’t it Leonard Cohen who said that it’s through the cracks that the light gets in?
Yes. So something’s happening.
Martha’s job, as a clinical psychologist, is to look after people. So she’s very aware of her saviourism and stepping back from it. But her internalised racism has been hard. There’s Colourism in her family, but Martha, who is mixed race, has realised that colourist comments from her family are about them not about her. Martha wants to make sure she doesn’t try to pass as white any more, something she used to do. When people say, ‘You’ve got a lovely tan,’ now she’s much more comfortable with saying, ‘That’s not a tan. That’s just my skin.’
Something else that’s been hard has been acknowledging and understanding the microaggressions she’s received. She didn’t realise that the things that stung her were racism, until she did Nova’s Course. So another hard lesson has been that you can be a good human and still really mess up and hurt people. And there’s also the lesson about perfectionism. Martha says, ‘If I’m trying to be perfect then I’m being saviourist and I’m trying not to be.’
Martha says it’s hard to feel part of a racist system, to know you’re just making little cracks in the system rather than actually breaking it down. But she hopes it’ll be the next generation who bring about real change, ‘As long as the people who are taking action now – me included – are taking good action.’
Books Referenced:
The Good Ally - Nova Reid
Why I Am No Longer Talking to White People About Race - Reni Eddo-Lodge