Student Confessions on Anti-Racism: Tanya
Welcome to Student Confessions - an interview series where graduates of Becoming Anti-Racist with Nova Reid share the challenges and triumphs of their anti-racism journey.
Tanya describes herself as a free-flowing spirit, someone who’s finding herself, someone who’s on a journey of self-discovery, learning and becoming a better person for the world in general and for people around her.
Tanya describes herself as a Brown Kenyan, or Indian Kenyan, who’s also lived in the UK. In Kenya, she works in the henna industry, the social media industry and in theatre. She’s the parent of one son, and when she and her family moved back to Kenya from the UK, she felt a bit redundant in terms of anti-racism work. She wondered if she needed to continue doing anti-racism work there. But she realised she did. Because within her family and within the Asian community, they need to be conscious of how they’re interacting with their fellow Black Kenyans.
Tanya says, “We need to be more inclusive of each other - I did the course because I also wanted to do it for myself, for my own internalised racism.”
Interviewer Angela - When did you begin your anti-racism journey?
Late-2020 / early-2021 when I moved to Kenya. I’d finished half of Nova’s Course Becoming Anti-Racist with Nova Reid when I moved to Nairobi (I began the Course in England).
Interviewer - What motivated you to look at anti-Blackness?
A mix of things. The first time I came across a formal setting for an anti-racism space was through Nova’s Course, the one called Courageous Courage – the one that was dedicated to People of Colour. That was really helpful in terms of equipping People of Colour with tools and conversations, and the vocabulary to use when they needed it. And I was also very aware of my privilege of being quite fair-skinned and quite often being mistaken for Brazilian.
That led me to lean in with curiosity to my racism and to see how – in Asian culture and in my family – being born and brought up in Kenya, that has instilled certain thought processes that are so subliminal that we make decisions based on certain aspects of racism, but we don’t realise it’s happening.
I wanted to lean into that with curiosity and see how I could help be an anti-racist voice as well as asking, ‘How can I teach people around me, equip people around me that what they’re doing is wrong, and why.’ Because we all know that these conversations about racism are really difficult so the Courageous Courage course was really helpful.
Interviewer - Do any memories of those types of conversations spring to mind, to illustrate what you’re saying?
Yes. Coming back to Kenya, I realised there’s a lot of hierarchy. And there’s the colonial space. But in the hierarchy, Black people put white people first. And when the colonial space came in and Brown people were trying to build businesses, the Indian locals saw that as something quite offensive: they felt threatened and thought the Brown people were taking all their money and their work – so that’s the underlying tone that we Brown Kenyans consistently face living in Kenya.
I’ve heard stories from my parents about their experiences on the receiving end of racism, but that still doesn’t justify their own racist thoughts. So I would always lean in with curiosity. For instance, when we moved, my son was in a school with mixed students and when I have multiracial people over to my Dad’s I’d always notice a slight apprehension in his tone. I say, ‘Not everyone is the same. You’ve got to give some people credit for not being racist.’ But it has to be very tiny steps. He’s a man in his seventies, not that that’s any defence.
I think, ‘How do we have this conversation so that there’s no resistance?’ But by dropping in those little seeds of positivity, I think that’s opening his mind for people he doesn’t know coming into his space. Because, as much as he’s lived and worked in Kenya all his life, he has many Black colleagues and Black friends and patients, it still doesn’t change his mindset for them in his private space. And here I am, organising my son’s birthday party, and having all his friends and their parents in this space, so I’m leaning into it all with curiosity and trying to give my father different perspectives on people’s lives.
Interviewer - I so resonant with dropping little things into conversations. When I’m talking to white people, friends, colleagues, family, it’s that gentle dripping (or dropping) of seeds that works. As opposed to going in with all four feet.
Yes. Full-on confrontation doesn’t work. A lot of the things with my Dad are around him saying, ‘You haven’t lived here for long. You’ve just come here so what do you know about what life’s like here?’ And I’m finding that with many people here. I’m new to the henna space and I advocate for safe henna but people will say, ‘What do you know? You’ve just come in and you’re foreign and you’re this and you’re that.’ And I say, ‘If you want to burn you can keep burning. But I have safe henna here.’
There’s a point in Nova’s Course where she says something like, ‘If people aren’t going to change, don’t burn yourself out over it. Just know you’ve done your bit. And you can continue doing the drip feed.’ And that’s what I appreciated because I always find it really difficult, or feel bad, if there isn’t instant change or my point isn’t listened to or understood.
Interviewer - I also resonant with the feeling of not getting my point across in conversation with white people about racism – and then understanding that, exactly as you say, to continue to lean in, to continue to be curious is the way forward. And also – I don’t know if you find this – but not to say to myself that I’m a failure because it’s continuing process. It’s not a test.
It’s not a test.
At the moment I’m working with a theatrical company and the Director’s very intentional about having an inclusive cast. He’s an Indian Kenyan and the play we’re putting on is a historical Indian story from the ages of the Gita. But in the cast we have a Black Kenyan speaking Sanskrit, acting and saying the words. And we also have Black Kenyan queer people on the team and we have a Black tech team. It’s very inclusive. And I put myself in those spaces because I can resonate with those people in terms of the value that an inclusive space brings. And the Director is very intentional in having more women on the team than men.
The play is a male origin play. There are two armies fighting – in those days they were very male-oriented – and so while there are more men on the stage, the tech team is led by a female. The content team is led by me, a female: we’ve got two women and a guy doing editing and the dancers are all women, so it’s nice to be in that space and remember that as much as this conversation is more relevant – from my experience – in the UK than it is over here, when the Black Lives Matter movement came in people here said, ‘It doesn’t apply to us because there’s a Black majority.’ So instead of Black Lives Matter, they were anti-police brutality. That’s what they took from those campaigns.
So a part of me felt a bit redundant, as if I didn’t need to continue doing anti-racism work here. But I do. Because within my family and within the Asian community, as much as we are a minority we also need to see how we’re speaking to and integrating with our fellow Black Kenyans. That’s a big thing. We need to be more inclusive of each other. I’m starting to see where minority decisions are being made against me and where I question things like, ‘Is it because I’m Indian? Or is it because I can’t speak the language? Or this? Or that? It’s interesting. But I’m not complaining. I’m still very privileged. I’m just noticing.’
Interviewer - Have you worked with white people in anti-racism work? If so, what’s your experience been and how did Nova’s Course help?
I haven’t worked with white people. As I said I finished the Course when I was in Nairobi. But I think what the Course has done for me, coming to Nairobi, is open my eyes to see how white ex-pats – there are white Kenyans as well – but how white ex-pats behave in Kenya and how they’re put on a pedestal by the Black Kenyans. Black Kenyans put white people first in the queues and everything and I think, ‘Oh, come on.’
So the Course has opened my eyes - but I’m not quite sure how I can address the hierarchy here because there is a Black majority here. But that attitude towards white people stems from colonialism so I think, ‘Who would I speak to about this?’
But I found something quite interesting recently. I attended a Queer Allied Chamber of Commerce event in conjunction with the British High Commissioner, or Deputy High Commissioner. It was a garden party and it was really lovely. I got there early, which is very unusual for Kenyan timing, so I spoke with the organisers and also I met some white British women but I felt intimidated and I didn’t know why. So I thought I’d talk to the artists because I can resonate with artists, but I struggled to talk to the white people because, in my mind I had a picture of, ‘You’re probably here for three to six months, you’re probably enjoying the privileges of white Kenyans, the green, the wonderful experiences that are so over-priced.’
But then they came over and said hi and talked about it not being legal to be queer here and how that’s such a shame and I said it was and I said I appreciated this event. But I wasn’t sure if their presence was just ticking a box. But at the same time I didn’t know anything about them so I was judging without knowing, but I’m not sure I would be able to interact with white people over here when I myself have those stereotypes in my mind which I need to break. I need to work on that and be more approachable. But it also takes effort from my end, to approach them.
Interviewer - Could you clarify something for me: the difference between ex-pat white people and white Kenyans? Is the difference that white Kenyans are born in Kenya, and ex-pat white people aren’t born in Kenya?
Yes. There’s an affectionate term for white Kenyans, they’re called Kenyan Cowboys. But us Indians, we didn’t get an affectionate term from the local Black Kenyans. We just got Muhindi, which means Indian. But yes, white Kenyans have been born and brought up in Kenya. They’ve lived mostly privileged lives – I’m not saying I haven’t, I’ve also had a privileged life here – but I can see the hierarchy of privilege.
There’s the poverty line – which is mostly Black Kenyans. And then there are the Indians, some on very low incomes and just surviving, through to those who are hugely privileged. And then there are the white Kenyans who are usually in the same bracket as the privileged Indians, and then there are the ex-pats who are usually living in UN buildings. Black Kenyans think of us Indians as always having money: a friend of mine, an Indian Kenyan, was struggling and he went to a shelter for help. They asked him what he was there to donate. He said, ‘Nothing, I would like some support. I’ve just been evicted. I would like somewhere to stay.’ But they were convinced he’d come to donate.
Black Kenyans assume that I also have that kind of money. But most of what people see is a car that’s not mine, a house that’s not mine, the jewellery I wear that’s not mine, these clothes are my Mum’s. But there’s a perception that Indians have money and Black Kenyans don’t. So prejudice and racism flows among everything. I’m on the receiving end of it here but I’m also aware of how it affects my fellow Black Kenyans. So it’s really complex. And I need to take each conversation separately and be aware and see whether I have the energy to address things or not.
I remember at the beginning of the theatre production we’re working on, the Director and I sat down with our tech team and said, ‘Please make sure you don’t make assumptions about what us Indians are like. And at the same time we won’t assume things about you.’
Interviewer - What was the most difficult aspect of the Course and why?
Translating the Course work into action while living in Kenya. Not the shame that comes with it, because I accepted that. But because I was doing the Course in Kenya, being here changed a lot of things. So I was thinking, ‘How do I have these conversations, using this language, with people who are already aware that racism exists?’
That was the most difficult part because it’s amazing to be armed with this information and I can use it when I’m over there in England. But here in Kenya it’s remembering that, for a lot of people, their priority is survival, or just getting through a day’s work and heading home. They don’t have time for feelings or emotions. So that’s the most difficult part.
Interviewer - Did you ever think of giving up on the Course? If so, why and what kept you going?
There was a point where I almost gave up. It was in the middle of the move from England to here. I thought I wouldn’t need to do anti-racism work in Kenya. But I didn’t give up because I also wanted to do it for myself, for my own internalised racism. I wanted to make sure I had the knowledge, for myself, for my own personal journey, but also that I can bring it out whenever I feel called to. But also where I know that the person approaching me is understanding of the situation, in the sense that they may not understand what they’ve done wrong or right, but in the sense that racism as an entity exists.
Interviewer - How do you navigate shame without turning it into self-loathing?
It’s a case of realising that it’s happened. Sitting with it. And then saying, ‘I’ll do better next time’. Learning from it and moving on.
I had that experience recently, a month ago. I was pushing for a queer friend to be part of the theatre production team. I’d always been conscious that they go by the pronouns of they / them but there was one conversation I had with the Director and I consistently mislabelled their pronouns without even noticing. At the end of the conversation the Director said, ‘Just say that this is what you did. It doesn’t mean it’s bad. There’s no jdugement. You can correct yourself. But I just wanted to let you know that you went through that conversation giving them the pronoun they don’t go by, about seven or eight times.’
And afterwards I kept saying to myself, ‘They go by they / them. They go by they / them. But at the same time if you make a mistake, just be aware and move forward.’ To be aware that I’m trying, and that’s good, but not to beat myself up for getting it wrong. Remembering that and still trying my best.
And I remember something Nova mentioned to me a while ago. I asked her, ‘If I was to have a conversation – not a particularly anti-racist conversation – but if I was to say something and it came across as racist but that wasn’t my intention, how do I navigate that? How do I explain myself?’ She said, ‘If your intention is pure, that will come through. You don’t have to consistently explain yourself.’
So every time I feel the shame coming through, I say to myself that my intention was not to be racist but I can see how it could be misconstrued. So learning from that, but also sitting with the feeling of disappointment, not shame. And then moving forward.
Interviewer - Disappointment, I like that. It’s a very good word. Instead of being entirely engulfed in shame. And then moving forward.
What were your aha moments on the Course?
Microaggressions. That was huge.
I felt, ‘I’m not dreaming it. There’s a reason I feel their impact. That is valid.
Recognising what microaggressions are was a huge turning point for me.
From what I’ve experienced growing up in the UK, and also here in Kenya. Microaggressions in terms of, ‘How do people see me?’ For example I’m working in a Kenyan company, a young marketing agency, where the staff are Black Kenyans. But when they got me on board, when I asked them what they liked about me and why they hired me they said it was because of my UK experience and they liked the way I speak.
But part of me wondered if that was very topical or if they’d hired me for my knowledge and skills. And they said, ‘No no no. We think you’re good, but we also hired you because of your UK experience and the way you speak.’ My job description has changed slightly, which has made me feel uncomfortable. My role was initially to do with strategy creation however it transitioned to gaining new business, which isn’t my forte. So I wonder if they understand the concept of microaggressions and the nuances of my progression?
When I joined the team it was International Happiness Day, so I said so, but they said, ‘We don’t celebrate these things here.’ I felt that if they didn’t get how Happiness Day is something to be acknowledged, or something to use to boost team morale, then they don’t get other nuances in life so they’re not going to get what I wanted to talk to them about in terms of microaggressions. I’m learning how to manage it. But they don’t have the patience to sit with things like that. In many of the conversations I have they say; ‘Well, okay, yes. But now just get on with what you need to do, at work.’
I feel it’s going to be more of a waste of time to try and explain microaggressions to them rather than finding constructive conversations to have.
Interviewer - How has doing the Course helped you and the people around you? At work or in your personal life, or both?
It’s helped me in my life in the sense of being able to notice microaggressions – the biggest thing for me. And being aware of myself, the way I carry myself in this space in Nairobi. And being able to give opportunities that I come across to people who need them the most, like minoritised communities or people who don’t have a job. If there’s a way I can help, I will.
This Course has helped me see and be more aware of my privileges and be comfortable with them as well. Because if I wasn’t privileged I wouldn’t be able to help the people I can help. The fact that I don’t own a car means I have a little extra cash for maybe a project I’m running, I can pay someone to help with that project. Things like that have helped me in this space.
But talking about racism here is very tricky and I think it’s because of the colonial history [in Kenya].
But the Course has made more aware of myself and how I carry myself and how I can sprinkle those little nuggets of anti-racism. I think that’s my role here.
Interviewer - How has the Course informed the work you do (if relevant)?
It depends on the space. So in terms of my henna work it’s helped me become more aware of the spaces that are less privileged.
In terms of my social media work, when I was freelancing as a social media manager it helps me find clients who I align with. Hence the theatrical space I’m in which is very inclusive. We can have conversations about racism openly and we can talk about communities openly. It’s a very wholesome non-judgemental space as well so I’m very glad I found that space.
And the Course has influenced me and given me the confidence to own who I am and to accept where I have internalised racism still. Speaking with people who I can bounce off, that has helped me understand different perspectives and see things in ways I didn’t see them before. So that’s how it’s helped me in my work and in my personal space.
Interviewer - How has the Course changed / informed the way you parent (if relevant)?
We have one child. It’s been interesting because before we moved to Kenya my child had been to school in England where he was one Indian in a white class. Over here he’s one of three or four Indians in a Black Kenyan class. And whilst he has never grown up segregated, it’s interesting to see how he thinks. His best friend is a Black Kenyan and we often have his friends coming over, or we go there, so it’s a very inclusive wonderful space in the school that nurtures this.
But it’s also interesting to see how he attributes a faith to a certain skin colour. And how he says, ‘I want to be African.’ I say there’s nothing wrong with saying Black Kenyan, they’re Black Kenyans. We’re also Kenyans, but we’re Brown Kenyans, we’re Indian Kenyans. I say, ‘You don’t have to be scared of using the word Black. They are Black Kenyans and it’s wonderful. We are Indian Kenyans and that’s wonderful. There are Pakistani Kenyans.’
But I also say that just because they’re Black Kenyans doesn’t mean all of them are Christian. You can have a Black person who’s Sikh, you can have a Black Kenyan who’s Hindu. I showed him some pictures and his mind went like that (Tanya pulled her hands away from the sides of her head as if it was exploding). I said, ‘In India there were Black Kings.’ And he said, ‘How ?!’
So I lean into conversations with him, I get curious and ask him why he said something. I say, ‘I’m really interested to understand what made you say that?’ And if he gets defensive I’ll explain and say, ‘I’m just asking what made you say that? I want to understand your thought process.’
I have a book called Let’s Talk about Racism, for kids. We went through it together – I think he was a bit young for it then – but it was good to go through the different pages and look at the pictures and it described racism well. Living as a minority in both countries, the UK and Kenya, is interesting for him.
One thing I noticed was that he assumed that Black Indians just had house-help jobs. I said, ‘No. That’s not right.’ We’d just moved here, so I said, ‘You can’t just assume that one kind of people have only one kind of job. There are businessmen, there are doctors, there are shop-keepers and of course we have help. But it doesn’t mean that that’s all they can do. People have different skills and we need to celebrate different skills in different people.’
We teach him how we support our staff with fees, healthcare, with food every month. We support their households. And with the recent flooding in Kenya we said if they needed any more bedding or anything to just ask us. So we’re teaching him from that perspective how to be compassionate to our fellow neighbours, our fellow people who are working with us, our teams. So the Course has allowed me to become more aware of his thoughts, his language and how he is viewing people.
He loves his vehicles so he’ll say, ‘Oh my friend’s Dad has got an X5 or a Mercedes Benz’. But I’m hoping that with those prestige cars will come an understanding that not everybody has the same job just because they’re Black Kenyans. That’s what I want to show him.
Interviewer - How has the Course changed the relationships you have with people in your life? White, Black, other People of Colour?
I don’t think it’s changed because I haven’t been in a space where I’ve been able to have that much influence. But I feel people are getting a picture of me – where I’ve been dropping nuggets of anti-racism – that’s where I feel they realise how I think. But then again I feel it goes over their heads. So it’s a continuous process of dropping nuggets.
But I don’t think it’s changed much, in the sense of anti-racism. If anything it might be a bit more distant with the people I might call friends. Or, in the theatrical team, if I comment on something they might give me a certain look and then either brush it off or distance themselves from me. But I guess, if they don’t want to talk to me anymore, that I’ve touched a nerve.
It hasn’t been confrontational.
Interviewer - How do you remain self-aware? eg, How do you manage internalised racism ?
Whenever I’m in a space where there could be opportunities for my racism to come out, I feel more aware of the way I’m carrying myself, of what I’m saying, who opportunities should go to and things like that. So when I was working with the theatrical company and they asked me if I knew anyone who might join the tech team, or if I knew anyone who would like to be part of the show, I would meet people from my henna side as well and say, ‘There’s a role going.’ I’d put out feelers. But I’m also very conscious of not just putting feelers out to people who come from the same community as me, and also of putting them out to people who needed a job.
For me, being aware of questioning myself all the time is important. What’s my privilege? How can I help? And if I can’t help, then don’t make it worse. Being aware of how I see the world. And trying not to be patronising, which is easily done here. There’s a lot of patronising conversation here [in Kenya].
Interviewer - What’s been the hardest lesson to learn / accept?
That I have to be the ambassador of anti-racism.
It didn’t really hit me until after I’d done the Course when I thought, ‘I’ve done this. Now I’ve got to do it.’
And I also think – coming back to a space like this, in Kenya – wondering how I can really make that happen. How can I bring the conversations that are relevant here, to here, using the language, and the words, the vocabulary, that we have there in the UK? How to make it relevant here in Kenya?
When I mentioned to my friend about the Black Lives Matter movement, she said to me, ‘Think about it. Black people are the majority here.’
So the language has to be adjusted slightly and I think that’s the hardest bit. How do I use the knowledge that I learned in the UK for the UK – I still want to use that knowledge – but how do I use it here? And how do I do it with people who have the privilege of understanding the language? Or, if there are people around me who don’t understand that language because their priority is survival, how do I use that language in terms of ensuring that I can still spread those seeds and do the work of anti-racism. I think that’s the hardest bit.
Interviewer - What’s been the most important lesson you’ve learned that you carry forward?
That I’m still doing it. My voice still counts, regardless of how small it is. I’m very conscious of how small my voice is. And how small those little droplets of anti-racism are.
But the important thing is knowing that it is still valid. That every small step is still valid.
It’s something I’m very conscious of, that Nova’s work is very much centred in the UK and I’m here in Kenya and I’m wondering if it’s still making a difference. Are people still listening? Are people still understanding? But they are. And that’s the most important thing.
Interviewer - It’s believing that the ripples, the drops, will spread.
Yes.
Interviewer - How have you, and how are you still, inviting more people into this work?
I have conversations. But I’m still finding my feet in how to invite people in, because of the space I’m in. I’m finding that tough. How do I encourage people to take the Course? Or read the books? Or question themselves about whether they need to work on this?
But interestingly yesterday we had a conversation with some team members about how it’s okay if you’re racist, you just need to know that you’re racist and be aware. And someone said they thought they were half-racist. And I said, ‘Well, good, you’re aware. Now you can work on it.’ So some people are understanding that space, but are they actively making any changes?
Interviewer - How was the format of the Course for you? Was it accessible? Is there any way that the Course accessibility could be improved?
For me it was accessible. I really liked that there was a video presentation, there was audio-only, and the questions were really helpful. So I found it quite seamless. I prefer self-study, then I get less distracted by others in community conversation. But I also realise the importance of groups and bouncing off each other in communities. And because I’m aware that my situation, living in Kenya, is slightly different from others in the group I wanted to go through the Course by myself, so I didn’t use the community section as much as I could have.
But I did find the Course very easy to go through and the fact that you could go back and watch more videos if you wanted to was good. And the fact that you have access to it for a year was very useful.
Interviewer - Is there anything else you’d like to say about the Course or about your anti-racism journey that we haven’t talked about?
I appreciate the Course. And I did it on a bursary as well which I’m hugely grateful for. I would like to extend my thanks to Nova and the team and I hope that I’m doing justice to the work as much as possible in this space that I’m trying to find my footing in.
Tanya’s biggest aha moment on the Course was recognising microaggressions. She realised she wasn’t dreaming them, realised there was a reason she felt their impact, realised that microaggressions are real. That was a huge turning point for her.
The Course has made her more aware of herself and how she can sprinkle nuggets of anti-racism around her. It’s also given her the confidence to own who she is and to accept where she still has internalised racism. And the Course has allowed her to become more aware of her child’s thoughts, his language and how he views people.
The most important thing from the Course is the knowledge that her voice, regardless of how small it is, still counts.
Books Referenced:
Let’s Talk about Racism
The Good Ally - Nova Reid