Student Confessions on Anti-Racism: Penny
Welcome to Student Confessions - an interview series where graduates of Becoming Anti-Racist with Nova Reid share the challenges and triumphs of their anti-racism journey.
Penny is a single mum of two children. She runs her own business as a holistic therapist in equine health. She used to be a teacher; her background is in fine art. Penny completed the course via a student bursary. One of the most empowering things about Becoming Anti-Racist with Nova Reid has been realising anti-racism work isn’t about being perfect. Dropping the idea of being a ‘good student’ and a ‘good person’ has been very empowering. The hardest part of the course for Penny was the loneliness of not being able to talk about anti-racism to everyone she cares about, easily.
Interviewer Angela - When did you begin your anti-racism journey?
Properly – after the murder of George Floyd. Prior to that there were things that could have been a catalyst – I did teach history for a little bit – but I wouldn’t say I’d properly started my anti-racism journey then. It really wasn’t until the murder of George Floyd, the Black Lives Matter movement and that whole period. That was a really important time: as well as being a parent, I woke up to how important it was to educate myself.
Interviewer - When you say you taught history, do you mean you taught Black history as well?
No I didn’t. I taught about the Civil War and about Ireland – and I was starting to learn about the origins of the Holocaust and about the Wave Experiment (a social experiment in fascism) showing how ordinary citizens could easily go along with persecution. I started to be a little bit awake to that reality. That was in my early twenties. I wasn’t consciously on an anti-racism journey, it’s just that looking back I think, oh yes, I’ve looked at some of this stuff before, but not properly engaged with it.
Interviewer - What motivated you to start / continue?
Watching the documentary 13th (by Ava DuVernay) – that was a really emotional catalyst. I engaged with that documentary and felt heartbroken. It’s a shattering documentary. It woke me up to the reality that so many Black, Indigenous and People of Colour live with, and my own obliviousness and privilege to that. I saw links with so many other things. I’ve been very interested in Native American history since I was a child, and seeing the connections, the umbrella of white supremacy, and the impact it has had and is having. I needed an emotional shift. And that documentary – 13th – was it: a really big catalyst.
Interviewer - I so get the emotional shift. I didn’t see it coming. But it happened.
But it happens, absolutely. And what has helped me to continue is social media: influencers, educators, authors, podcasts, continuing to engage with these fantastic content creators, fantastic authors, fantastic filmmakers and really feeling there’s a community, and there’s so much to learn.
It’s made me take a more critical analysis of media and pop culture and really see the truth. This is what we’re looking for, isn’t it, the truth. To discover the truth.
It’s massively liberating but very very hard and heart-breaking as well. But it’s good to have that community and to be engaging on a daily basis.
Interviewer - What was the most difficult aspect of the course and why?
I think talking to loved ones about it, other white people. My own white fragility, facing loved ones’ white fragility. Engaging with the course when I really didn’t feel like it. Feeling, ‘I can’t listen to this today’. And thinking, ‘That’s my privilege isn’t it? I can choose when I dip in and out.’
And the loneliness of not being able to talk about this to everyone I care about in my social circle very easily. But then it’s not easy. It’s not going to be easy. That’s been the hardest aspect. And just being really honest about the fact that, sometimes, it’s extremely hard material to engage with.
Interviewer - Did you ever think of giving up on the course? If so, why and what kept you going?
In October 2023 I began a 4-month custody dispute regarding the safety of my children. During this stressful time I struggled with my mental wellbeing and found it very difficult to keep engaged with the course. I didn’t think of giving up but I could feel the time ticking by and knew I needed to get my mindset stronger and to engage with the modules again.
It is great having a full year to work through the course as it gives time for a slower pace of working at times. I am also very lucky and grateful to be awarded a bursary for the course so I feel an extra motivation to engage with and complete it.
Interviewer - How do you navigate shame without turning it into self-loathing?
I don’t think I always managed to do that. I think it does turn into self-loathing: there are moments. But Nova’s course is excellent in terms of her Self-Care Module, and so is her book. She’s so compassionate and graceful and empathetic to people who are living with white fragility and what it’s like to engage. And I think Dr Robin DiAngelo’s lectures are brilliant: engaging with comedians who tackle white fragility and racism, like Gina Yashere.
And obviously the self-care practices help. And remembering – as Nova repeats in the course – that this isn’t about perfectionism.
For me it’s been really empowering to drop that idea of being a ‘good student’ and a ‘good person’. And recognising that that’s all tied in with white supremacy: it keeps us locked in and defensive against looking at ourselves properly.
I use a lot of humour in my life in difficult situations so, sometimes, when things have been very heavy in the learning, switching into a lighter mood – not to trivialise racism – but humour helps to unlock some of that fear and panic.
So it’s just trying to get that balance. So you’re not stopping because of the shame, but you’re sort of finding a way – sometimes through humour – to work your way through it. That’s been my experience.
Interviewer - How does it feel to know this work isn’t about you? That you’re not at the centre of this work?
It’s hugely liberating. And very motivating. I think all this work is a real lesson in maturity and waking up to not centring yourself in the discussions. It goes back to what I was saying before about feeling I had to get everything right and be a ‘good girl’ and a ‘good student’.
It really is about making mistakes and learning and having self-compassion and compassion for others. It’s a lifetime of learning, isn’t it? Learning to get it wrong and to face that, face the harm that I’ve done and take responsibility for that and make changes. That is massive.
So – I’ve just talked about myself when this question is about how the work isn’t about me but I think I’m saying that it is hugely liberating because it helps you step outside of that framework.
Interviewer - What were your aha moments on the course?
There were so many. It’s really difficult to pin them all down.
My own white privilege. That was a really illuminating module. I went through, since birth – and you could go back obviously ancestrally as well – and thought about how you don’t see that white privilege until you look. And then it’s huge. And it’s shaped so many of the outcomes of where I am now. And things that I have experienced. And things that I haven’t had to experience.
Coming from a working-class northern background, a family of Irish immigrants, and a female, you know there’s lots of things there where I was aware of, shall we say, my lack of privilege. But I do also consider myself massively privileged. But then it’s another massive paradigm shift to see how my whiteness and how I’m perceived in the world has benefitted me.
And how my own outrage and emotion at other white people and their racism is actually my own white fragility. It’s actually making it about me. And that is huge. And again it’s recognising that I’m – when I do that – trying to centre myself as being a ‘good one’.
People of Colour and Indigenous People are not interested in my shame. That’s not helpful. Shame is not helpful. It’s inevitable, but it’s not helping anybody.
And also the Black women and white women section of the course, that was massive. Because I’ve always thought of myself as a supporter of feminism and the feminist movement. And it’s really heartbreaking, gutting on a visceral level, to see what harm feminism that does not talk about and include the intersection between what Black women live with and have to face on a daily basis does. It’s totally ignored in so many circles. I watched the Barbie movie and I didn’t feel that was addressed at all. I may be wrong, I may have missed it, but I felt that was something that was totally ignored.
Suddenly you can see the impact of this stuff and that blatant racism is still very much current in so much popular culture and media. So that was another aha moment, seeing that, as Kehinde Andrews says, Nothing has changed. Nothing is better for Black people. And even though I don’t want to believe that, actually, it’s not for me to say. But I can certainly see the racism when I look at popular culture, and media.
At the start of my anti-racism journey one of the biggest ahas was how you can be married to a Person of Colour, as a white person; you can have children of mixed race, and you can still hold really problematic racist ideology, behaviour and views: that was really huge. Because so many of us white people use our proximity to Black People and People of Colour as a get-out, as an excuse for not doing the work. And that really showed how much work there is to do, I think.
Interviewer - How has doing the course helped you and the people around you? At work or in your personal life, or both?
The biggest thing for me is the Parenting module, as a parent.
Realising that if you don’t teach children anti-racism then they will grow up with racist views and perspectives.
That’s where I probably spend the majority of my energy with my children. But it’s also exciting – because it’s something I feel I can do that’s positive. With so much in life you feel you can’t do anything and I think that’s the brilliant thing about anti-racism as a white person. Number One, there’s absolutely nothing you can lose by doing it. It’s only going to benefit and it’s something that we can actively do to make the world a better place. I know that sounds a little bit optimistic but in those interpersonal relationships, those conversations that we’re having every single day, that’s where we can make a difference.
And in my personal relationships: I have a partner and it’s been really really helpful to discuss racism. It comes up on a weekly basis. And it’s really helped me stay calm. It’s helped me have compassion and see that it’s a lifetime of learning and we’re all moving at a different pace. And there’s no, ‘Oh, you’re doing better than I’m doing.’ Even though all that childish stuff comes up all the time, anti-racism work is an opportunity to make a difference even if it feels like it’s this [Penny put her thumb and forefinger together and made a very small gap].
You just don’t know what the impact is going to be later on, so it’s always worth tackling. Instead of clamming up and feeling terrified of saying the wrong thing, or feeling like you have to solve everything and put everyone right, that your sentences have to be perfect and replaying the conversation in your head saying, ‘I wish I’d said that. I’ve let my anti-racism journey down.’ All that kind of stuff. It’s been really really helpful. And even when this course is finished, it’s a platform, a springboard to continue. Like a say, a lifetime of work.
And in work it’s been really helpful.
I work in holistic health where there’s a lot of spirituality, but if there’s not anti-racism training in that work then it’s damaging. That’s what I’ve realised and learnt, that no matter how ‘yogic’ we are with our crystals and all that stuff, if you’re not acknowledging the umbrella of white supremacy then the harm that’s doing, the harm I’m doing, through the lack of acknowledgement and learning affects everything. There’s nothing that’s not impacted.
So even now, I work in the countryside, I work with horses, I very rarely come across People of Colour in my work, but it doesn’t matter because it’s still really important to acknowledge the importance of the work.
Interviewer - How has the course informed the work you do (if relevant)?
As well as working with horses, I’m an artist. And within the art world and within my art training – and I taught history of art and art – it was seen as a token gesture to make sure we included an artist of a non-white European background. It was normalised – I didn’t examine it. But I really see now how art is a platform to communicate and elevate Black voices and expressions and experiences: it’s so powerful and important to do that.
So little things like following more Black creatives and learning about the depth of the work and the messages that are coming across. But I can hear a little voice in my head saying, ‘But you always used to love Ben Okri and Steve McQueen’. Yes, that’s true. But I didn’t acknowledge the differences in our experiences or really see where these artists were coming from and what they needed to overcome in order to have their voices heard in what is still an extremely white, middle-class environment.
So there’s intersections there as well, and obviously it’s a very male-dominated environment. So it’s just endlessly fascinating and interesting to delve into that and I think, through art, things can be expressed in a way that’s hard in other mediums. So that’s really important.
And working in the equestrian world as well, it’s extremely white, and there’s something about the horse world, the visual representation of the white man on the horse…I can’t explain it well, but it can be a bastion and a protectorate of white identity – particularly white women.
There’s lots more for me to learn on that front about how anti-racism training can influence that space. I think I’m still very much at the beginning of learning about that.
Interviewer - When you’re talking about the white man, the white woman, on a horse, do you think it could be as simple as the height? Being above other people? Putting themselves above others?
Absolutely.
Police ride horses and use that to crowd control. There’s something about conquest – right up until recently horses would have been used in colonial activities, in the army. There’s something really evocative there. And the irony is of course that these animals are terribly abused and don’t really want to be a part of any of it. But it’s that elevation, that superiority, and forcing another being to submit to your will.
And in the spiritual nature of it as well the horse elevates, allows us to be above what we consider to be lowly. We take a lot from horses and don’t really give anything back. And if you think of the plantations and the white master on a horse with the enslaved people lower down, it resonates, you can’t ignore that that still means something, an image in our minds.
As a little girl I wanted to be elevated, I wanted to be on that horse, I wanted to feel like I was being seen and, again this is something that I love about Nova’s course: the psychology aspect to it. Her understanding of human psychology and how that really drew me to this course after listening to her book. That massive amount of grace that she has to bring psychology into the course, because the understanding of the psychology within ourselves on our anti-racism journey helps with the compassion, helps us work through, navigate, the shame, helps understand the history. It’s just massive, isn’t it?
But the horse aspect – and my anti-racism – is something I think about all the time. I just don’t often articulate it.
Interviewer - I know nothing about the horse world – but would it be true to say that there are very few Black riders and images of Black people on horses? Black owners of horses? Or would that only be true to say in a white-dominant society? Maybe you don’t even know.
It’s a great question. Definitely in the West that is absolutely true. And of course it’s the Western media that is projected around the world. That’s where the money is and that’s where the famous – in terms of the sport – are. I doubt you’ll see very many equestrians of colour in the Olympics for instance. Even though horse ownership throughout the world is not like that, I think when we’re looking at the top tiers of equestrian sport and ownership – I mean the Royal family for a start – the Queen and the racing industry is built on white supremacy, even though the owners may be of various ethnicities, but it’s still extremely white-dominated and it kind of feeds as well into this idea of the British countryside and I’m really interested in learning more about why the British countryside is so white. Obviously racism is the main answer. But I’d like to delve more into that, about land ownership, the sense of entitlement to land, particularly British land. And I think definitely when you look at famous equestrians it’s very rare to see anybody of colour and it must be a very difficult environment for People of Colour.
I’m part of a Facebook group of People of Colour in equestrian sport because I’m interested in learning more about that experience. There are connections there and links that I think are really interesting historically, about how racism shapes what society looks like currently, certainly in the UK.
Interviewer - And the whole land ownership thing is interesting too. Because it came through the monarchy, through the class system, originally, didn’t it? Land was granted by a monarch to a loyal white servant who was then enobled in some way and that continues, that land has been passed down, inherited.
Absolutely. Yes, huge amounts, a massive percentage of England is owned by a tiny number of white people. And then you look at the media’s portrayal of generally non-white people coming to the UK for various reasons – or having been resident in the UK for decades, centuries – and how the land issue is twisted. This idea that there’s limited resources. ‘They’re taking all our resources.’ And the reality is that it’s total nonsense. And so damaging and infuriating. We could go on.
But racism is a really interesting topic linked to my work. I drive around these big estates and I go into these places and I’m thinking, ‘How would these people react if I wasn’t white? Would they be listening to what I’m saying?’ I’m not trying to say, ‘They’re bad,’ it’s just trying to have a better understanding, and compassion.
Interviewer - How has the course changed / informed the way you parent (if relevant)?
It’s really helped with questions that my children have. They go to a white-dominant school and I think it’s really helped me understand the need to make sure my children are socialised with all types of people. The course has helped me understand how early children are racialised, from the really heartbreaking [Clark] Doll Experiment, learning about that is a very difficult thing to come to terms with, and acknowledge. And also the effect when – if you grow up in a single-race environment – it makes it hard to distinguish between people of different ethnicities. And understanding the importance of children seeing Black and non-white representation in all their media, their books.
And speaking to their school about problematic things, like learning about Christopher Columbus. I had a talk with the head teacher asking why they’re learning about this person as some sort of hero. And seeing problems within the curriculum, token gestures, when they say, ‘Oh, it’s okay, because they learn about this particular Black person as well.’ But what kind of messages are they getting about People of Colour? There’s so little representation. And how to shield children from absorbing these white supremacist messages, trying to be more aware of that.
My son asked the other day, he’s ten now, and he said, ‘Mummy, you know racism. Can white people experience racism?’ It was such a good question. And I was so glad to have had this training from Nova’s course and the background reading and, as a result of it, to be able to, calmly, but also excited about the opportunity to answer him and help him understand, and help myself understand, more about structural racism.
I think he, at school, has been bullied by a particular boy. He calls my son, ‘Skinny and pale’. He says, ‘You’re too pale and you’re too skinny.’ And I think that’s where the question came from. It’s like well, is that racism?
His question helped me to help him understand what racism is and what prejudice is and how they’re different. And trying to do it in an age-appropriate way too, it’s difficult. I don’t want to paint a picture to him of the world that’s untrue but at the same time, I want to help him see the truth. And that’s something this course has been really helpful with.
It’s a difficult line to walk sometimes, because of the emotion it might bring up. And trying to keep the emotion down and just focus on the facts. And helping my son understand that it’s a societal issue. He doesn’t have to solve it all by himself.
So, yes, it’s a big one. But the Parenting and racism section has been brilliant. And it will be ongoing for me and my children.
Interviewer - Also the simple fact that you had a conversation with your son, you acknowledged his question, means your children know they can talk about racism with you and ask questions and you’ll listen and answer. And that’s huge. Nova’s awful childhood experience of racism [from a child] where the mother who didn’t apologise, didn’t do anything to acknowledge the pain it caused Nova, didn’t say to her child, What things do we love that are brown? The mother did nothing at all.
Yes. It wasn’t what the child said but the mother’s reaction that was so heartbreaking. To be able to have the presence of mind, the understanding, not to panic, not to go into a shame spiral and to be able to repair that moment. That would have been life-changing if that had happened.
Dr Robin DiAngelo – in one of the lectures I listened to recently – was brilliant in the way she described a moment when she’d said something racist during one of her meetings. Someone brought it up to her and she’d gone and repaired the situation and spoken to the woman who she’d offended and the woman had said, ‘So when you make a mistake next, would you like me to call you out publicly or privately?’ Instead of that panic, that shame, that, ‘Oh my gosh, I’ve said something awful’ and it’s all coming crashing down. Instead of making it all about yourself, as a parent, as well.
Inevitably children are going to say things – you want children to be open and expressive and curious and not mirror that panic and clamming up and for me to be able to be open. Sometimes it can be the most simple things that help repair, the most simple phrases. It doesn’t have to be overcomplicated. But sometimes I can feel myself thinking, ‘Okay, what do I say now?’ But actually it’s about relaxing. This isn’t about getting it perfect. This is about acknowledging the harm that’s been done and repairing. And teaching children how to do the same, in an age-appropriate way.
Interviewer - And also that you don’t have to address it immediately. ‘We’ll talk about that when we get home.
Exactly.
Interviewer - How has the course changed the relationships you have with Black people and People of Colour in your life?
I don’t have loads of relationships with People of Colour and Black people. But there are some family members: my nieces on my brother’s side. It’s helped me acknowledge how their experiences have been different to my children’s and my own experiences. And it’s helped me acknowledge the racism that I have perpetuated in the past, towards them and their mum.
I hope the course has helped me change those relationships but it’s not something I can say I’ve addressed directly in a conversation with them. But it’s definitely helped me see what I need to do in order to improve those relationships. And to improve their experience of me.
Interviewer - Are you saying that these people are Black people? Or are you saying that these people are white people who you want to talk more about racism with?
My ex-sister-in-law is Argentinian and she is a Brown person. And her children, my nieces, are Brown, and definitely when they first got together and they first had their children, I was totally unaware of the racist things that I was perpetuating. And so I’ve had talks with my brother. He’s called me out, actually, and I think the first time he did that I was like, ‘No!’ I was very defensive. And then we had another conversation where I acknowledged my racism. This was a few years before I did Nova’s course, but it’s made me look back on that and see when I’d done harm.
And – just little things – like at Christmas time I’ll send them books that celebrate diversity. There’s a lovely book about a Black girl doing her hair with her Dad. Things like that that I want them to know I see and acknowledge that being in this society is harder for them in lots of ways, and how I celebrate their difference and their ancestry.
It’s so simple really. Conquering the defensiveness, getting over centring myself and my fragility, and the love is there and the interest is there, so I bring that out now and don’t have the barrier of my whiteness being a damaging thing. And that’s ongoing. It’s always ongoing. I would say they’re the closest People of Colour to me, in my family.
Someone said something about People of Colour and Black people being able to relax because a white person has done their work. And that’s my aim. I just want people to be able to be themselves with me because I haven’t got all those barriers and awkwardnesses and weirdnesses about being white. It’s a lifetime’s work. But that’s what I want.
Interviewer - How do you remain self-aware? eg, How do you avoid moving into saviourism? (How do you recognise when you are moving into saviourism?)
With difficulty. It’s very very hard, I think.
I fail miserably all the time. But I try to remember that racism is a white person problem. It’s perpetuated by white people but it’s experienced horrifically by Black people, People of Colour and Indigenous people. But it’s our problem. We need to sort ourselves out and nobody needs saving.
Believing people need saving is a perpetuation of colonialism, a perpetuation of that mentality. But it’s difficult to be aware of when saviourism is happening. It comes up a lot when I’m having an argument about racism, let’s say with my partner, of wanting to step into the role of, ‘I’m going to be the one who makes this right,’ instead of being aware that I’m part of the problem. It’s very difficult. I’m actually feeling nauseous just talking about it.
You see it all the time, in charity videos and that sort of thing. I was very much that person in my twenties. I remember going to South Africa, with a white South African boyfriend at the time, and thinking that we had to go on a township tour. Or we had to do this, or we had to do that. I thought I was Angelina Jolie! It was embarrassing. I didn’t have the education or the maturity or the tools. I just remember thinking, ‘I don’t want to go to South Africa and only spend time in the white segregated parts’. It was very saviourist, and clumsy, and harmful.
Interviewer - But we learn from our mistakes, don’t we? Especially through something like this amazing course of Nova’s.
Absolutely. Very much. And I think it’s trying to look back with compassion and not centring yourself and saying, ‘When you know better you can do better’. [as Maya Angelou says – quoted in Nova’s The Good Ally].
But you’re not going to know better unless you study, unless you listen and take a back seat. Unless you hear the voices of those with racist experiences. The thing is it’s all there.
The infuriating thing, I’m infuriated with myself, because it’s all been there, all the time. And taking the time to do this course and look and listen is a massive paradigm shift. I recommend everyone does Nova’s course.
Interviewer - What’s been the hardest lesson to learn / accept?
The pervasiveness of racism in the present day. Just because a small amount of Indigenous People and Black People and People of Colour have got a seat at the table doesn’t mean racism has changed, doesn’t mean life has improved for the majority of Black People. And the legacy of colonialism is still pervasive in society. We’re obviously seeing it in the news now, with the Palestinians and Gaza and it’s so hard to see and acknowledge but there’s no cushion, no delusion, to live in any more.
And the microaggressions. So on the one hand you’ve got this horrific genocide happening under the banner of white supremacy. And then People of Colour living, daily, with microaggressions and the impact that has on their health. You can’t ignore statistics, epigenetics, it’s just so awful.
That’s been the hardest lesson.
Interviewer - What’s been the most important lesson you’ve learned that you carry forward?
To decentre myself. And seeing everything through the fact that the history of the western world is built on white supremacy and how that changes you, changes how I look at everything in the society I’ve grown up in. And the impact that that society’s had on so many other societies and cultures around the world.
But also to really enjoy and celebrate Black, Indigenous and non-white culture: the richness and the beauty, without it being a token gesture and without appropriation, but just celebrate the wonder and the beauty of other cultures and how amazing they are and how they enhance all our lives. To learn more about that.
And again just trying to balance the horror as well. Because there’s so much to be celebrated and so much to be acknowledged and to learn in terms of the strength and resilience of people who have been under the dominance of white supremacy, and still are.
Interviewer -Is there anything else you’d like to say about the course or about your anti-racism journey that we haven’t talked about?
I think it would be great if Nova’s anti-racism course was a part of mainstream education for white people – and certainly in all companies and work environments. How easy would it be to include the course and what a massive difference it would make.
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Penny thinks Nova’s course should be part of mainstream education for white people and it would make a massive difference. The Parenting and racism section had a particular impact on Penny and it will be ongoing work for Penny and her children, she knows anti-racism work is a lifetime’s work. She’s also realised, from Becoming Anti-Racist with Nova Reid, that racism is a white person problem. It’s perpetuated by white people but it’s experienced horrifically by Black people, People of Colour and Indigenous people. Penny Says: “This isn’t about getting it perfect. This is about acknowledging the harm that’s been done and repairing.”
Learn more about Becoming Anti-Racist with Nova Reid
Books Referenced:
The Good Ally - Nova Reid