Student Confessions on Anti-Racism: Clare
Welcome to Student Confessions - an interview series where graduates of Becoming Anti-Racist with Nova Reid share the challenges and triumphs of their anti-racism journey.
Clare is a massage therapist and an administrator for a university. She says, ‘I’m an introvert, but sociable as well. And I care deeply about the world.’ She’s spent most of her working life in the public sector and has done the ‘Diversity and Inclusion ticking-boxes things’, but she’s never done anything like Nova’s anti-racism Course. Clare feels she has a way to go in terms of taking action against racism. But she’s becoming more confident, and her view of the world has changed as a consequence of the Course. She says, ‘I view things more cynically (or maybe that should be curiously?!) in terms of what I am told now, I don’t necessarily take things at face value, particularly where race is involved. I question things more. I can’t quite find what I am trying to say here, maybe this is to do with once you see it, you can’t unsee it!’
Interviewer: Clare, so good to see you…when did you begin your anti racism journey?
I Nova did a series of short workshops over the course of a week – I think in June 2020, after George Floyd was murdered. I did that. I came across it from people I follow on Instragram.
When I finished that I started to do some reading around racism. I read Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race by Reni Eddo-Lodge and I think it was when I was reading that, that I realised I was nodding in all the right places, but there was something in one part of the book where I remember thinking, I’m not quite sure I agree with that. And then Nova put a prompt up on Instagram and I replied to that and I realised I didn’t understand what she was asking me. I can’t remember when that was – but I signed up for the Course because I realised I didn’t understand her question and that I’d clearly got some work to do.
Interviewer: What motivated you to start / continue?
The motivator to start was, and is, a real desire to keep trying to understand how racism shows up in myself and how I fit in society and, I try not to get too hung up on this, but why it took me so long to start. There’s echoes of my childhood here, about why it took me so long, about things on my radar and how probably as a teenager I could have started my anti-racism journey earlier. The cues were there. And now, at the age of forty-nine, I’m wondering, How have I missed it?
The Course was really important in keeping me going. Because Nova includes self-care, for somebody like me that was really important. I’m going through other changes in my life besides this, and the shame part of it could have been a real problem for me if she hadn’t recognised shame as a thing.
There was one particular day when something happened on Instagram and it was like my insides had fallen out and it wasn’t until afterwards that I realised that was shame. But Nova’s words always echo with me about that and, I might be misquoting her here, but she said something like, ‘You’re no good to me in a shame spiral.’ And that’s what I remind myself of. It’s like, it’s okay, it’s uncomfortable, it just is uncomfortable. That’s how it is. But, at the extreme, other people are dying [from racism]. So my discomfort is nothing.
‘You’re no good to me in a shame spiral.’
And the other thing that keeps me going is realising my levels of ignorance. So I’m reading a book at the moment that a friend gave me a couple of years ago – I’ve only just got round to reading it, I always have loads of books on the go – but it’s about a doctor in the Congo who treats women who have been abused during the war. I said to my partner last night, I’ve never thought about what it must be like to have to think about my safety before I’ve even left the house. So it’s that kind of thing that keeps me going. If I don’t know then I can’t do anything about it and it’ll never change.
Interviewer: What was the most difficult aspect of the course for you?
I have to be careful as a person, generally, in that I want to know everything, now. And if I don’t, I’ve got this part of me, this hefty protector, that is quite harsh. So I have to be careful about that when I start to realise that I really don’t understand something. But there was something about racism that felt particularly urgent because I realised the damage I could do if I started to do or say something that would harm someone else. But also that it’s okay just to not do something. It’s okay to just learn. And not to go down the white saviour route and trying to fix it. This is going to take me my lifetime.
So I think that was hard.
But also trying not to dwell too much on why I hadn’t seen racism before. It was interesting to try to understand why I hadn’t seen what was in front of my eyes, but also not to get too caught up in the guilt or the shame of that because that would stop me learning.
Interviewer: Was there any point in the course where you considered giving up and if so, at what point?
I don’t think I ever thought of giving up, not consciously. There were times when I moved away from it for a little bit but never with the intention of not going back. The thing that kept me going was Nova. And what fascinates me about the Course, what I loved about the Course, is she just thought of everything about how we [white people] work. So although it was difficult, because Nova understands us I can remind my ego constantly that it’s okay, when it gets in the way.
Any training I’ve done before has just been Diversity and Inclusion. I’ve always worked in the Public Sector so we’ve done the ticking-boxes type things but I’ve never done anything like Nova’s Course.
So I think because Nova thought about me as well as the content, that made it easier to keep going.
Interviewer: How did you navigate and how do you navigate shame without turning it into self-loathing?
That’s a difficult one. I’m having therapy at the moment and one of the things we’re just getting to is shame and how I deal with that. So if I’m answering truthfully at the moment, there is still an element of self-loathing. So that’s a work in progress. But I guess what I have been able to do – Nova will chuckle if she remembers – there was an email conversation we had a while ago and she encouraged therapy and it’s interesting that it’s taken me a while to pursue therapy for all sorts of reasons. But self-loathing is something that’s just exhausting. So that’s where I am: exhausted.
But with regard to racism and shame in particular I think it’s just knowing that anti-racism work is huge and racism is huge and it’s important to keep going and it’s important to me, really important to me. I can’t put my finger on exactly what it was... but my protection mechanisms were strong. But I think anti-racism work is something that’s always been important to me but I just didn’t realise it.
So now that I’m starting to get it, racism, that self-loathing just has to be there. And the real thing is Nova acknowledging that it’s going to be uncomfortable. So that’s how I see self-loathing. Its like, It’s okay, there you are, it is uncomfortable. But it’s either that or don’t do anti-racism work. And don’t do anti-racism work isn’t an option.
So I’ll just keep going.
But I am also learning how to support myself through the shame other than the therapy: I’m learning self-compassion and kindness to self.
Angela - Interviewer - I too have been in therapy and when I began the Course, more than once it occurred to me that if I hadn’t been in therapy and so didn’t have some kind of grasp on me and how I am, the Course would have been much harder.
Yes, I think that too. And also, some time ago – because I wasn’t in therapy when I did the Course – I had some gentle training that was very much centred around conditioning and society, the patriarchy – all of this was new to me – and so there was a lot of lovely stuff around that.
The reason I used the word introvert at the beginning is that a few years ago I read Quiet by Susan Cain which is all about introversion and it was a revelation to me. It was so wonderful to know it wasn’t just me. That I’m not a freak. That I’m not the only one that gets tongue-tied and doesn’t know what to do in certain situations. And the coaching carried that on. But I think where I’ve got to now is that there’s the cognitive understanding, but there’s also my belief systems that I need to look at. You can’t stay in that bashing-yourself-over-the-head state, can you?
Interviewer: how does it feel to know that this work isn’t about you?
That’s a tricky question. It’s interesting because I think that was the catalyst for me doing the Course, in the exchange Nova and I had on Instragram and my not understanding her question: my lack of understanding came from a desire to be at the centre. I’m a people-pleaser and part of that is the saviour part. Part of my pattern, with family, say, is to try and keep everything nice and streamlined and no conflict and that’s what I noticed with the anti-racism work: I didn’t feel it wasn’t about me. But the bit that I’ve learned is to take a step back from that.
And the irony is that works with my introversion too because I do need time to process things. But in all honesty, not making this about me is still a work in progress. There are still times when we talk about centring whiteness, I kind of get it, when I’m in a situation I think, Is that what I’m doing? So it’s still part of my process. But hopefully through the therapy as well, as I start to be able to set down more of this stuff about always wanting to make everything okay, I’ll be able to work through this bit about, Where am I working from? Is it from me or is it to serve something greater than me?
Interviewer: If you had to pick a single ‘aha’ moment in your anti racism journey, what would you pick?
So many, I suspect. I think it was subtle, but it’s a big thing still, seeing where racism shows up. It’s every day. One of the podcasts Nova did – about when you start seeing it you can’t unsee it. And so I think it’s that. And, as well as that being an aha moment, it’s quite jarring. Because it’s like, Oh my God, I’ve spent so many years not seeing this.
And also there were some aha moments around some of the facts that Nova gave. I can’t remember them all at this particular moment but, for instance, realising just what a structure racism is. It seems crazy to say it now, but I didn’t realise that race wasn’t a real thing, that it was something made up. That was a big one.
Interviewer: How has doing the course helped you and the people around you?
It helps me see things differently. It’s definitely helped me realise that when I see ‘that horrible racist over there’ I can’t excuse myself from racism. Just because I’m not like that person, I’m still racist myself. Without a shadow of a doubt.
Also the Course is a massive lesson in life, around compassion and judgement. So I think what it’s helped me do is enter conversations differently. When I started the shorter version of the Course, what I thought would happen was that I’d have all these facts and figures that I was going to quote at people and disprove their theories. But going on to do the full Course blew all of that completely out of the water. And I have started to keep a little notebook of some of the facts just because I think it’s important. But I also think it’s helped me go into those conversations differently, around being able to explain a little bit about what I see, and what I understand racism to be, but also it definitely isn’t about knowing everything. And so I’m being gentler in those conversations. It’s not always possible but now I can have those conversations that I might have walked out of the room from before. The kinds of conversations where I thought, before, I’m not going down this road. I don’t want to hear it. Now I do.
An interesting example from a work point of view is that when they brought in anonymous marking. I was actively part of that conversation about bringing anonymous marking in. At our school they teach racism among other things but there were questions about the anonymous marking, people saying things like; ‘Why are we doing this? Nobody’s racist here. We don’t have the software to do it properly’.
I reflect on that conversation now, having done the Course, and I would never have entered into that conversation the way I did then. But now, at work, when people perceive things like, ‘we can’t possibly be that way,’ I see it very differently now.
One thing, possibly the most important, I didn’t mention is around taking action. I still have a long way to go on this front. However, I also now feel much more equipped to take action than would have been the case prior. More confident putting emails together, more compassionate in how I approach communications ie: not othering. Also seeing where I hold myself back in taking action and trying to unpick why. This applies to the in-person conversations I have too, though I know I already mentioned that.
How has it informed the work you do?
From a massage point of view – I live in Brighton and there isn’t a large Black community – but I’m generally more conscious of where my interactions are coming from, from the Unconscious Bias part of the Course. I think I’m now more careful of where I’m coming from, but not in a patronising way.
The reason I started talking about it from a Brighton point of view is that I would say we’re a predominantly white city. So my interaction with people from other backgrounds is few and far between. What I mean by that is that my world is predominantly white. And on reflection, I see there is work for me to do here.
But I have done some work for a charity that works with Black and Brown women and whereas before the Course I may have had some awareness of what they’ve experienced, because of the nature of the charity, now I’m able to see the layers better. The ways in which I need to exercise care. I do anyway, but now I have a far better understanding of the nature of different people’s experiences.
And so from a massage point of view I would happily work with anybody, but I’m conscious, around safety, of keeping safe. And I suppose it’s about my whiteness, in my interactions and how I work with people. Being aware of what my whiteness gives me that other people may not have experienced. My safety could be very different from somebody else’s.
And it’s the same at the university. We work with students from all over the world. And so the Course has enabled me to be aware of the difficult physical stuff they may have been through and how their life experiences may be different. And how my whiteness has given me different things.
The Course has enabled me to be more aware of where I might do harm. In my massage work I would always have felt I created as safe a space as possible for people (though I am cautious about claiming safety) but that would have been from my own viewpoint. Now it isn’t.
One thing I have really absorbed following both Nova and other Black and Brown people is their connection to something higher/to their ancestors. It strikes me how disconnected we white people, generally, are from anything like that. And how much this is to our detriment.
Interviewer: How has it changed/ informed the way you parent (if relevant) or support young people?
I’m not a parent. But I do have a lot of young people in my life. I had a conversation with my nephew about appropriation. He’d said something and I asked, Is that not appropriation? I wasn’t sure if he would understand, but he did.
But the key thing now, is – this is such an admission – but it doesn’t scare me now. And it feels really important to have those conversations now with the youngsters that I’m in contact with. I buy books either about subjects underpinned by racism, or from Black authors. And now I recognise the importance of being able to talk openly about all of the structures that are part of the world that we live in. But the reason racism feels so important is that it underpins all of them. We don’t get the rest unless we deal with racism.
Also I read Mikaela Loach’s It’s Not That Radical: Climate Action to Transform our World and what I really loved – building on Nova’s work – is not needing to have all the answers. So I can have those conversations about racism with the youngsters in my life without needing to solve the problems. That’s not quite the right word. But it’s like, we can have a world where everything’s equal, it’s just that we’re choosing not to. So I guess it’s being less fearful around those kinds of conversations.
Regarding the children in my life, I am more thoughtful and conscious about my interactions with them around racism. I am keen to have conversations, and I look for the opportunity to do so (with caveats!), ie: books being one way to do so, and I love buying books! And I love learning from them too, asking what they know, especially what they are learning in history. However, I do also see the same patterns evolving, so I know it’s not as simple as youngsters being more attuned in quite the way I said it in the interview.
Interviewer: How has it changed the relationship you have with Black people and People of Colour in your life?
There aren’t many, that’s the honest answer. But I have done the thing where I’ve said to myself that I can’t be racist because a friend’s husband is Black. Obviously I don’t think that now. So that’s where the shift in conversation has happened for me. There’s a group of us where a member is South-Asian and somebody asked if they’d experienced racism or if their family had and they said, ‘No.’ And that wasn’t the place to counter that. But I did have a subsequent conversation with a member of the group where I was curious about whether that was true. And whether that’s still part of the framework that we work within, and they might not have realised that they’ve been discriminated against. And that’s the whole thing, isn’t it, that’s where racism is so clever. In the same way that I might say I’ve never really experienced sexism.
So I’m more aware of the bigger picture.
Interviewer: How do you remain self-aware? eg, How do you avoid moving into saviourism? (How do you recognise when you are moving into saviourism?)
Genuinely now, very often, I know I don’t know. I don’t even have to remind myself I don’t know. There was a post on Instagram from Aja Barber and she’d said, ‘You don’t all need to have an opinion about everything.’ And that’s so true. But the way social media is I can feel myself thinking I should say something. But you don’t have to. I recognise that it isn’t our place to do that.
Some of the conversations I’ve had with Nova over Instagram, I wonder, would I do those now? I like to think I wouldn’t. I did, in those unaware or less aware times. But I realise now that just coming in without awareness can cause damage and be detrimental. So it’s, now, being really aware, that if you’re going to enter into a
conversation, be really aware of who you’re interacting with and in my case that I’m definitely still learning. And if the journey’s this long [Clare held her arms wide] I’m still here [she put her hands close together].
Interviewer: What’s been the hardest lesson and the most important lesson that you’re carrying forward from doing this work?
That. What I’ve just said. That the journey is long. The desire – I guess it’s saviourism but it’s also me as a person – to make everything okay, wanting change to be quicker than it’s obviously going to be. You only need to read the history to realise I’m not going to be around to see dramatic change. And that’s hard. Especially when you look at what’s going on in the world now.
I’m hopeful it’s a tipping point. But I’m also conscious it might not be. And the cost of that. And I still don’t understand why what’s so obvious to me now, is still so unobvious to so many. there are times when things that just won’t make sense - even with knowledge. Because sometimes it just doesn’t make sense on a humane level, even knowing what might have led to things being that way But I don’t want that to sound naive. I know white supremacy is not going to give up lightly, and that sadly there is a high likelihood that things may get worse before they get better.
What’s been the most important lesson you’ve learned that you carry forward?
To keep learning. And keep learning about how far-reaching racism is. How racism creeps into pretty much everything. And also to recognise that there’s going to be bits that I don’t understand and to be careful that that doesn’t stop me. It won’t stop me.
Keep learning. That’s it.
Interviewer: Can you talk more about your experience of how accessible the course was for you?
I did the Beta version and was lucky to be given access to the newest version. The course was easy to access and I loved the way the sections were broken down, that made things so manageable and so easy to come in and out from
Interviewer: To wrap up, is there anything else you would like to say about the course, the book, Nova or more about your anti racism journey?
I do think the Course is genius. I think it’s really quite something that Nova put it together in the first place. And now I have a better understanding of what it must be like to be an anti-racist educator and activist: although I can’t really imagine what it must be like.
But the Course is vital. It’s life-changing. Because of all the layers it deals with. It’s something that I will always be eternally grateful that I was able to do.
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Clare says that as a result of doing the Course she’ll always keep learning, always keep going. She knows it’s a lifelong journey but even though it’s often an uncomfortable one, not doing anti-racism work isn’t an option now she’s done the Course. She says, ‘I’ll just keep going.’
There are so many racist things Clare sees now that she didn’t see before. And so many places where she’s thinking about taking action. And, she says, ‘One thing I have really absorbed following both Nova and other Black and Brown people is their connection to something higher/to their ancestors. It strikes me how disconnected we white people, generally, are from anything like that. And how much this is to our detriment. Not entirely sure why I mention this other than it feels quite vital – maybe because this disconnect runs deep and enables tropes to become facts.
Learn more about Becoming Anti-Racist with Nova Reid
Books Referenced:
Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race - Reni Eddo-Lodge
Quiet - Susan Cain
It’s Not That Radical: Climate Action to Transform our World - Mikaela Loach